Trail Boss in .577 snider and .577/450?
- Thread starter jasonf
- Start date
In the .577 Snider, I've used both a 0.590" 480 gr bullet and a 320 gr 0.600" Round Ball in both Magtech 24 ga brass and Fiocchi Plastic 24 ga with:
- 15.0 grs of Unique;
- 35.0 grs of SR4759;
- 35.0 grs of AA5744; and
- 35.0 grs of H4227
Pressures were in the 12K psi range and MV's were 1000-1100 fps with the 480 gr bullet, slightly higher with the Round Ball.
If I was using Trail Boss with those bullets, I'd work up from 12.0 grs and stop at 1000 fps with the 480 gr and 1200 fps with the Round Ball.
Look here for others' experiences with the 577/450: http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/305866-577-450-with-smokeless
Last edited:
- Location
- WMU247 near Edmonton
I'm using IMR4227 for 577/450 loads but I'm using Jamison brass cases not shotgun cases so you may be blowing case heads.
I use a 405 grn gas checked cast bullet, 38grn of 4227 and a magnum primer. I fill up the case with 2 sheets of toilet paper to keep the powder against the primer.
I get 1560 FPS MV from this load.
just clicked on the link Andy posted and lo and behold its a thread from 2009 when I started when workgin up my load
I use a 405 grn gas checked cast bullet, 38grn of 4227 and a magnum primer. I fill up the case with 2 sheets of toilet paper to keep the powder against the primer.
I get 1560 FPS MV from this load.
just clicked on the link Andy posted and lo and behold its a thread from 2009 when I started when workgin up my load
If you're keen on using Trail Boss be sure to check the loading information on it. I've seen lots of examples in loading data on rifle cartridges where TB is listed but it produces high chamber pressure for the velocity compared to other powder choices. TB was designed to be safe in handgun cartridge case volumes to where it's not possible to overload the round as long as the bullet has room to seat. But this trait fails in a lot of rifle case volumes and it's no longer as safe or even optimum powder choice.
For old guns I tend to look for the powder choices which produces the desired velocity at the lowest chamber pressure. The idea being to try to keep the peak pressure at or very close to the old black powder pressure. For the .38-55 I shoot this generally means things like 3031, 4227 or 4198 as well as a few other similar performing powders.
For old guns I tend to look for the powder choices which produces the desired velocity at the lowest chamber pressure. The idea being to try to keep the peak pressure at or very close to the old black powder pressure. For the .38-55 I shoot this generally means things like 3031, 4227 or 4198 as well as a few other similar performing powders.
Trail Boss "produces high chamber pressure compared to other powder choices". Of course it does, all powders do except for the very slowest.
TB being a very fast powder will produce much higher chamber pressure for a given MV than just about all other powders - so will Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye and many others.
I keep hearing this same statement about TB. Are you suggesting that it stands out in a unique way? Please explain.
TB being a very fast powder will produce much higher chamber pressure for a given MV than just about all other powders - so will Unique, Red Dot, Bullseye and many others.
I keep hearing this same statement about TB. Are you suggesting that it stands out in a unique way? Please explain.
Thanks for the input. I just have to cast some bullets and I will give it a try. Not sure if my bullet choices are the best but they were available and inexpensive, both are likely to small of diameter but I am hoping they will expand enough if I use soft lead. I have a .578 dia 478 Minnie bullet mold for the .577 snider ( with my calipers at the muzzle my bore looks to be about .580 to .581). For the .577/450 I am going to try a .459 dia 405 gr hollow base ( bore dia at muzzle looks to about .459 to .460). I have Imr 4227/sr4759/Imr 4189/and Imr 3031 on hand. My only reason for wanting to try trail boss is that I find reduced loads of rifle/slower powders do not seem to burn properly in bigger cases.
Andy, you're quite right that it's a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Yet the makers of Trail Boss seem to be promoting this handgun caliber powder as some form of universal solution when it's clearly not a great option for rifle size volumes if we want to avoid high chamber pressures on older guns or older designs.
For example, it's listed on the Hodgdon web site as a powder for use in "trapdoor" .47-70 Government loads. But the pressure it produces for the velocity is very high compared to the other choices.
And yes, if Bullseye, Tightgroup or Unique were listed in there I don't doubt that the pressure from those handgun powders would be up there too. But they aren't listed because they are not a good matchup. Yet TB is listed. And it produces the expected lower velocity from the expected high peak chamber pressure. Which, to me, makes it a bad choice.
Jason, like you I've found that the reduced velocity loads using the powders you listed do produce some unburned powder flakes in the bore. But not so much with 4227 and 4198. But the amount they leave is minor compared to the amount left by5744. I've yet to try the 3031 I got some time back. But the nice thing is that all of these powders run at a lower chamber pressure which I like due to shooting from an 1869 vintage Swedish rolling block action.
I just started trying some loads that use a tuft of polyester pillow stuffing to hold the powder back against the primer. The hope being that I'll get a more complete burn. But really as long as the burn is consistent does it really matter if there are a few flakes left in the bore? It's not hard or abrasive so it's not doing any damage. At least that's what a few long time shooters have been telling me. I'd LIKE the charge to burn fully and cleanly but in the end tight groups is the goal. If I get that with some powder flakes left in the bore then "meh.....". I know it runs counter to our desire for tidiness but we just need to deal with that...
At any rate it's hard to find load data with pressure for .577 Snider. But based on the data I see for things like .45-70 it would not be one I'd want to use in an old action. And once again looking at the load data at the Hodgdon web site it's interesting that .50-140 Sharps does not list TB as an option. And the data for 45-120 Sharps does list it but at the maximum load with a pressure that is close to the other maximums the velocity is only about 2/3's that obtained for the same sort of pressure using other powders.
All of which suggests to me that TB is a powder best used in handgun cartridges or at least in smaller volume rifle cartridges.
My old time rifle cartridge of choice is .38-55. And even with the skinny 55gn case TB is a poor choice based on this pressure vs muzzle velocity issue.
Look the data over with an eye to the pressure vs velocity and I think you'll agree.
For example, it's listed on the Hodgdon web site as a powder for use in "trapdoor" .47-70 Government loads. But the pressure it produces for the velocity is very high compared to the other choices.
And yes, if Bullseye, Tightgroup or Unique were listed in there I don't doubt that the pressure from those handgun powders would be up there too. But they aren't listed because they are not a good matchup. Yet TB is listed. And it produces the expected lower velocity from the expected high peak chamber pressure. Which, to me, makes it a bad choice.
Jason, like you I've found that the reduced velocity loads using the powders you listed do produce some unburned powder flakes in the bore. But not so much with 4227 and 4198. But the amount they leave is minor compared to the amount left by5744. I've yet to try the 3031 I got some time back. But the nice thing is that all of these powders run at a lower chamber pressure which I like due to shooting from an 1869 vintage Swedish rolling block action.
I just started trying some loads that use a tuft of polyester pillow stuffing to hold the powder back against the primer. The hope being that I'll get a more complete burn. But really as long as the burn is consistent does it really matter if there are a few flakes left in the bore? It's not hard or abrasive so it's not doing any damage. At least that's what a few long time shooters have been telling me. I'd LIKE the charge to burn fully and cleanly but in the end tight groups is the goal. If I get that with some powder flakes left in the bore then "meh.....". I know it runs counter to our desire for tidiness but we just need to deal with that...
At any rate it's hard to find load data with pressure for .577 Snider. But based on the data I see for things like .45-70 it would not be one I'd want to use in an old action. And once again looking at the load data at the Hodgdon web site it's interesting that .50-140 Sharps does not list TB as an option. And the data for 45-120 Sharps does list it but at the maximum load with a pressure that is close to the other maximums the velocity is only about 2/3's that obtained for the same sort of pressure using other powders.
All of which suggests to me that TB is a powder best used in handgun cartridges or at least in smaller volume rifle cartridges.
My old time rifle cartridge of choice is .38-55. And even with the skinny 55gn case TB is a poor choice based on this pressure vs muzzle velocity issue.
Look the data over with an eye to the pressure vs velocity and I think you'll agree.
Andy, you're quite right that it's a bit like comparing apples to oranges. Yet the makers of Trail Boss seem to be promoting this handgun caliber powder as some form of universal solution when it's clearly not a great option for rifle size volumes if we want to avoid high chamber pressures on older guns or older designs.
For example, it's listed on the Hodgdon web site as a powder for use in "trapdoor" .47-70 Government loads. But the pressure it produces for the velocity is very high compared to the other choices.
And yes, if Bullseye, Tightgroup or Unique were listed in there I don't doubt that the pressure from those handgun powders would be up there too. But they aren't listed because they are not a good matchup. Yet TB is listed. And it produces the expected lower velocity from the expected high peak chamber pressure. Which, to me, makes it a bad choice.
Jason, like you I've found that the reduced velocity loads using the powders you listed do produce some unburned powder flakes in the bore. But not so much with 4227 and 4198. But the amount they leave is minor compared to the amount left by5744. I've yet to try the 3031 I got some time back. But the nice thing is that all of these powders run at a lower chamber pressure which I like due to shooting from an 1869 vintage Swedish rolling block action.
I just started trying some loads that use a tuft of polyester pillow stuffing to hold the powder back against the primer. The hope being that I'll get a more complete burn. But really as long as the burn is consistent does it really matter if there are a few flakes left in the bore? It's not hard or abrasive so it's not doing any damage. At least that's what a few long time shooters have been telling me. I'd LIKE the charge to burn fully and cleanly but in the end tight groups is the goal. If I get that with some powder flakes left in the bore then "meh.....". I know it runs counter to our desire for tidiness but we just need to deal with that...
At any rate it's hard to find load data with pressure for .577 Snider. But based on the data I see for things like .45-70 it would not be one I'd want to use in an old action. And once again looking at the load data at the Hodgdon web site it's interesting that .50-140 Sharps does not list TB as an option. And the data for 45-120 Sharps does list it but at the maximum load with a pressure that is close to the other maximums the velocity is only about 2/3's that obtained for the same sort of pressure using other powders.
All of which suggests to me that TB is a powder best used in handgun cartridges or at least in smaller volume rifle cartridges.
My old time rifle cartridge of choice is .38-55. And even with the skinny 55gn case TB is a poor choice based on this pressure vs muzzle velocity issue.
Look the data over with an eye to the pressure vs velocity and I think you'll agree.
The above seems to be "all about the MV", in which case Trail Boss will almost never be your powder of choice.
If you want max MV, you'll choose a powder with a burn rate such that you can use a full case and not exceed a certain peak pressure. If that's the objective, then fast powders are only going to fit that bill in small cartridges. This is elementary. The only thing special about Trail Boss is that it's bulky - aside from that it's just another fast powder. The other noteworthy thing is that fast powders are designed to not only produce high peak pressures with low charges, but they are designed to burn efficiently at low pressures.
Back to the original question - the 577 Snider and 577-450, both with which I have first-hand using smokeless powder. If you have a large cartridge like those, and are using it in an action that can only handle low pressures, the only powders you can use will be fast and the only MV you can expect will be slow. With the 577 Snider, even medium speed powders like H4895 can't be used, because it will not burn efficiently at the low operating pressure of the Snider action. In my experience, even the faster H4227 is unsuitable. In fact the best are Unique, Trail Boss, Bullseye, Red Dot and the like.
