Transporting without a registration card.

[coldestcanuck]

I used to work for WSS. I sold firearms, restricted and non-restricted. Your receipt, which shows the registration number is all that is required as registration for that firearm until your registration certificate arrives in the mail a week or so later. Black and white, plain and simple. Everytime we sold a firearm, we tell the customer, bring your receipt with you wherever you transport that firearm until you receive your certificate in the mail. Hope that clarifies everthing. This is BC, which should mean nothing because this is under Federal jurisdiction. This should be the case Canada wide.

Uhh--Did you not see my post where I quoted the BC CFO?? CFO sets up the Att rules. My LTATT clearly states I must be in possession of the reg. cert.. No offense but until WSS has the authority to seize my guns, I'll follow the CFO's instructions instead.

 

[iseager]

Ummm

Uhh--Did you not see my post where I quoted the BC CFO?? CFO sets up the Att rules. My LTATT clearly states I must be in possession of the reg. cert.. No offense but until WSS has the authority to seize my guns, I'll follow the CFO's instructions instead.

Every gun store in BC to my knowlege will give you possession of your gun once the transfer is complete as long as you show ownership and registration of that gun. I know a CFO and he says as long as you show the receipt with the serial number, cert number, and reference number on it, along with your name, you are good to go. If you have all of that and your gun get confiscated, I would take that to court for unlawful siezure.

 

[mralberta]

Every gun store in BC to my knowlege will give you possession of your gun once the transfer is complete as long as you show ownership and registration of that gun. I know a CFO and he says as long as you show the receipt with the serial number, cert number, and reference number on it, along with your name, you are good to go. If you have all of that and your gun get confiscated, I would take that to court for unlawful siezure.

Easily a couple grand down the toliet, plus the headache? IMHO, not worth it. I still have not recieved my reg cert for my GP100, it was "mailed" Jan 26. I phoned the CFO today for an update, she said it can take awhile to get to me because it is sent from Ottawa?
So, here I sit,

 

[Beegwally]

I just carry photocopies and not originals. Told that was ok.

 

[coldestcanuck]

I just carry photocopies and not originals. Told that was ok.

Photocopies are definitely OK. Using a reciept instead of a reg cert is not and that is straight from the BC CFO. When you buy from a store the CFO issues a short term which you get from the store with the reciept. That gets you home, period!!
Anybody that advises others that they may transport without a reg cert needs to read post 19 and their LTATT again and then pick up the phone and CALL THE CFO!!!!!!!!!

 

[BigBeaverBoomStix]

Photocopies are definitely OK. Using a reciept instead of a reg cert is not and that is straight from the BC CFO. When you buy from a store the CFO issues a short term which you get from the store with the reciept. That gets you home, period!!
Anybody that advises others that they may transport without a reg cert needs to read post 19 and their LTATT again and then pick up the phone and CALL THE CFO!!!!!!!!!

Thank you! Photocopies are acceptable. I couldn't imagine carrying the originals, which would eventually get "chewed up", every time I go to the range.

I have to agree though, why debate the validity of having the paper work with you, it's smarter to just have them as additional proof of ownership than go through the hassle down the road.

I can't blame a cop for being suspicious if you have a car full of guns and nothing to prove you own them except your PAL/RPAL. They're paid to be suspicious, and prevent risks to the public. We shouldn't fault them when we provide a degree of doubt which a simple piece of paper could clear up in seconds.

 

[mralberta]

I photocopied all of my reg cert's and LTATT, placed them in a plastic protector, and put them in the gun case.

Oh yea, it 4 weeks to get my reg cert fot my GP100.....

 

[BigBeaverBoomStix]

I photocopied all of my reg cert's and LTATT, placed them in a plastic protector, and put them in the gun case.

Oh yea, it 4 weeks to get my reg cert fot my GP100.....

At least yours arrived! I had two just disappear, never came, cause you know after a couple months something must be up, but I blame the mail man on this, it happened with other stuff on occasion too, just another weakness in the system - why they can't just e-mail you the info.

I had to finally call and request it be sent again, 10 days later, got it.

 

[Noltz]

I photocopied all of my reg cert's and LTATT, placed them in a plastic protector, and put them in the gun case.

Oh yea, it 4 weeks to get my reg cert fot my GP100.....

Dunno if you're in the same boat as Ontario, but there's some theories that say you can't open the gun case to retrieve your ATT's without violating the CCC. I'd suggest, and will do for my own, getting luggage tags and attaching them to your cases.

It's stupid, but people have been arrested for dumber things. You open the case to produce the ATT and next you're up on unsafe transport charges. Almost certain they'd get thrown out since you're under the direction of a police officer to do so... but why take the chance for a $4 holder?

 

[mralberta]

Dunno if you're in the same boat as Ontario, but there's some theories that say you can't open the gun case to retrieve your ATT's without violating the CCC. I'd suggest, and will do for my own, getting luggage tags and attaching them to your cases.

It's stupid, but people have been arrested for dumber things. You open the case to produce the ATT and next you're up on unsafe transport charges. Almost certain they'd get thrown out since you're under the direction of a police officer to do so... but why take the chance for a $4 holder?

Never thought of that. I will make appropriate adjustments.

Gotta love being paranoid......

 

[3strokes]

I photocopied all of my reg cert's and LTATT, placed them in a plastic protector, and put them in the gun case.

Oh yea, it 4 weeks to get my reg cert fot my GP100.....

For restricteds, I'd suggest you NOT put the paperwork inside the restricted's guncase. You're not supposed to open it except at home or at the range.

 

[Yogi05]

Might be a hassle if you get asked for the card but the reg.# is all you need, they can look up the rest....

Check this ongoing thread, post 14

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=729168

A story about being pulled over and in it he says

The other issue that I didn't have the registration cert for the shotgun or handgun (they were in my dads car who left 5 mins before I) He allowed me to call my old man and have him bring the papers back.

we were roadside for just over 2 hours waiting for the paper work to make its way back( dads cell phone wasnt on, had to wait for him to get homeand answer the landline and then come alllll the way back

For a registry cert !

Look it up? Depends on the officer's mood I guess.

The Ontario CFO told me it wasn't required, just the number.

Odd, usually they are more uptight than BC

They will always say that in regard to getting a purchased firearm home. If you call and ask them about using that number to transport to the range for play, they'll tell you to wait for the cert. Been there.

That's funny because I was told that the registration card had to be shown on demand & on the spot.

I guess it depends on who you talk to.

~ Andy

And THERE is the problem. Even the people charged with enforcing these laws can not give you a straight answer.

This topic came up several months ago and my comment remains the same:

When you buy a firearm, you must wait for the transfer to clear AND you must get a STATT before you take possession to bring it home. You don't have a cert in hand then, and nobody thinks twice. All of a sudden the gun gets home and must be 'quarantined' until you get cert in hand. Why?

I have found nothing in the Firearms Act or the Regulations for the Display... to say that I must have paper in hand.

If I am wrong, please cite relevant source. I would really appreciate it.

Thanks,

P

The Police Officer Field manual says there is a transition period between the time the firearm is purchased and the cert arrives in the mail, and that CFIS or CFRO can be checked for validity of ownership if required

Relevent source is the Criminal Code of Canada
Section 91, 92, and a few others
91. (1) Subject to subsections (4) and (5),
every person commits an offence who possesses
a firearm without being the holder of(a) a licence under which the person may
possess it; and
(b) a registration certificate for the firearm.

Is it the same for a non restricted rifle....you need to have the registration with you at all times....Im guessing yes

Yup. For now....

It does...what everyone is talking about is when you transfer a firearm into your name, you will get a transfer notice from the CFP with a new cert number...Then about 2 or 3 weeks later you will get your actual registration card...Ontario CFO has also said to me that the card is not necessary until you receive it, the transfer notice is suffice.

Again, I think if you ask specifically, they will say that refers to getting a purchase home, not continued use to and from the range.

There is discretion allowed to the police officer, but that same discretion means that you are also at their mercy.

I'm trying to find a CC section or FA section that shows if ONE firearm is siezed for no cert, the reamining firearms certificates you hold become void, meaning they can confiscate your whole collection. I'll comment further if I can find the section.

I used to work for WSS. I sold firearms, restricted and non-restricted. Your receipt, which shows the registration number is all that is required as registration for that firearm until your registration certificate arrives in the mail a week or so later. Black and white, plain and simple. Everytime we sold a firearm, we tell the customer, bring your receipt with you wherever you transport that firearm until you receive your certificate in the mail. Hope that clarifies everthing. This is BC, which should mean nothing because this is under Federal jurisdiction. This should be the case Canada wide.

That clairifies nothing. Once more, point of sale to place of storage. Based on Ontario CFO's interpretation, not mine.

I emailed the Canadian Firearms Program, on the 7th, asking about registration certificates, and I received a reply the next day. Here is the response from the email:

"The Criminal Code states that you must be able to produce a valid
licence and registration certificate for the inspection of a peace
officer if you have a firearm in your possession. If you do not have
these documents with you, the peace officer may seize the firearms. If
that was the only reason the firearms were seized, and you can produce
the required documents for inspection within 14 days, the police are
required to return the firearms to you.

Note: A transfer notification (Buyer) does not meet the above
requirement."

I walked out of Reliable Gun with just a STATT and a Transfer note. Looks like customers at WSS and Reliable aren't being told some critical info. Notice how it takes about two weeks to get the certificate in the mail, and you only have two weeks to show your papers before police are no longer required to return the firearms...

Generally right. To nit pick....the CC says you must be the HOLDER of a cert. There's the problem. Define HOLDER

CC
Meaning of
“holder”
(4) For the purposes of this Part, a person is
the holder of
(a) an authorization or a licence if the authorization
or licence has been issued to the
person and the person continues to hold it;
and
(b) a registration certificate for a firearm if
(i) the registration certificate has been issued
to the person and the person continues
to hold it, or
(ii) the person possesses the registration
certificate with the permission of its lawful
holder.

Does that mean you actually have to HOLDING it? Or , using their own phrase "continues to hold it" meaning it has been issued. I'm sure they don't expect you to be continuously "holding" it in the physical sense. Still undefined.

 

[Yogi05]

For restricteds, I'd suggest you NOT put the paperwork inside the restricted's guncase. You're not supposed to open it except at home or at the range.

On-going thread on this very topic

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=729168

I'm sure you'll get to it, but if a police officer tells you to open the case, do it.

I think it was sec 25 c.c.c

I posted it somewhere in that thread.

 

[explorin2]

below is a copy out of Criminal code of Canada August 2011 - not certain if this is current ... but in summary, if you are in possession of firearm, or restricted weapon (outside of your dwelling) you are required to produce the proper paper work to a peace officer on demand. If you can't produce such documents at time of request, the peace officer ahs the right to sieze the firearm, however you 14 days to produce.

Seizure on
failure to
produce
authorization​

117.03​

​

​

​

​

(1) Notwithstanding section 117.02,
a peace officer who finds
(a) a person in possession of a firearm who
fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection
by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence
under which the person may lawfully
possess the firearm and a registration certificate
for the firearm, or
(b) a person in possession of a prohibited
weapon, a restricted weapon, a prohibited
device or any prohibited ammunition who
fails, on demand, to produce, for inspection
by the peace officer, an authorization or a licence
under which the person may lawfully
possess it,
may seize the firearm, prohibited weapon, restricted
weapon, prohibited device or prohibited
ammunition unless its possession by the person
in the circumstances in which it is found is
authorized by any provision of this Part, or the
person is under the direct and immediate supervision
of another person who may lawfully possess​

it.

Return of seized
thing on
production of
authorization​

(2) Where a person from whom any thing is
seized pursuant to subsection (1) claims the
thing within fourteen days after the seizure and
produces for inspection by the peace officer by
whom it was seized, or any other peace officer
having custody of it,
(​

​

​

​

a) an authorization or a licence under
which the person is lawfully entitled to possess
it, and
(b) in the case of a firearm, a registration
certificate for the firearm,​

the thing shall forthwith be returned to that person.

Forfeiture of
seized thing​

(3) Where any thing seized pursuant to subsection
(1) is not claimed and returned as and
when provided by subsection (2), a peace officer
shall forthwith take the thing before a
provincial court judge, who may, after affording
the person from whom it was seized or its
owner, if known, an opportunity to establish
that the person is lawfully entitled to possess it,
declare it to be forfeited to Her Majesty, to be
disposed of or otherwise dealt with as the Attorney​

General directs.

 

[explorin2]

I laminate my registration certs and keep them in envelope, along with a copy of LTATT. Any time I leave my property with any of my firearms I take the envelope with me.

 

[Noltz]

You know what, we can discuss this all at length, back and forth on every word, but at the end of the day it's the Police and the CFC that we answer too. Both of them have telephones.

I recently (3 weeks ago) purchased a non-restricted rifle privately. The owner called the CFC and and started the transfer. "Hi. I'm selling this rifle to that guy...". I called 1 hour later. "Hi, I'm that guy buying this rifle." After confirming I was who I claimed to be, she said "transfer is complete. Would you like the registration number so you can go pick it up?"

"Is this all I will need if a police officer asks for my registration? Can I go to the range with this number?"

'Yes. Tell him you just bought it and this is the registration number. Police can see it was issued recently. Write it on a piece of paper and keep it with the firearm.' (Not exact quote, I wasn't writing it down.)