Trouble with seating die and varget loads .308

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NitwiT

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Hey all,

I've recently gotten into reloading, and am fairly well set up (I think) for my
.308.

I've run into a small problem, so let me describe me equipment and supplies

180 gr barnes ttsx bullets
varget powder
federal primers
winchester brass
rcbs reloading dies
rcbs rl2 press

Heres what I do..

Brass has been resized already, and trimmed to the length given in the barnes manual.

I'm using loads closer to the maximum, (43.5 gr) but even a minimum load of 40 gr doesnt seem to sort out whats going on.

Seating the bullet:

I put a trimmed brass casing into the holder, and pull the press arm down to its maximum rotation. Then I screw the rcbs seating die down till it touches the brass. At this point I back it off one full turn, and lock the seating ring.

Next I take a cartridge (no charge) that I have adjusted to the ideal length given in the manual, (it also just fits into my magazine) and is clear of the lans, and I insert it into the brass holder.

I again push the lever arm down, and screw the neck piece down till it touches the cartridge.

At this point I should be good to start rolling. (I thought)

What happened when I took a 180 gr barnes bullet, and tried seating it into the brass, was the load compressed so much that the bullet won't reach C.O.A.L., in fact, most of them end up stuck in the necking piece inside the die, instead of in the brass.

So, clearly, there's too much powder in my casings. My problem is, that I knew it would a 100% load density (which is fine), but I'm using all of the barnes suggested items in the manual, and can't seem to get the same C.O.A.L without a massively compressed load.

Only thing I could think of was that the brass was trimmed to short, it wasn't and it wouldnt change anything, since powder load and c.o.a.l will have the same compression.

Any more info needed, feel free to ask :D

Mark

btw, switching to a 168 grain barnes ttsx is possible, but still at 100% load density with varget powder.
 
I don't have a Barnes manual handy, but is your charge data from a barnes manual?

Barnes bullets are longer then lead core, so they will need more room then a lead bullet. 43.5 of varget in a winchester case gives plenty of room for other 180s, but maybe not a barnes. Just a though.
 
and I forgot to add, I have the exact same problem with nosler ballistic silvertip 168 gr.

Heres an interesting note tho, I have reloaded and shot 15 of the noslers, but it was on my cousins press, tho it was using my dies.
 
Are you sure your using the proper die?

What "necking" piece is the bullet getting stuck in? There is no "necking" piece in a Seating die.
 
sorry, i mistermed it, the small black thing that cups around the bullet and pushes it into the brass. I guess its the actual seater.

Thats the piece that the bullet seems to get stuck into. I have two rcbs 308 sets, and have tried both of them, same results.
 
Be absolutely sure you have the right weight of powder. Be double sure your scale is set right.
How high in the case does the powder come?
I have not used Vargot, but with H4831 I have completely filled a 270 case, in fact have to tap the case as the powder slowly goes in, to keep the powder from overflowing, then pushed the bullet in, and it stays in.
Is there enough tension on the bullet by the case neck?
If you are new to loading, you may not know the tension required, which should be set by the sizing dies, but maybe something is wrong there.
Certainly not normal to push the bullet back, especially the Nosler.
 
i have calibrated and double/triple checked the loads as i poured them, it comes up to the bottom the shoulder, where it starts to narrow.

I dont know how to check tension, I know that I can't push bullets into the case neck by hand.

It is supposed to be a 100% density load, now I am a reloading layman, and considered this to mean it would be full, I tried tapping the case to settle the powder, but still no go.

In my last attempt, the bullet was pushing into the powder hard enough that when the bullet was stuck in the seating piece, there were grains on the bottom.

The bullets in question are boattails, is there some method to get grains of powder to fill around the base of the bullet?
 
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From what I've read and has been said, compressing load to the degree im talking about really is no problem, yet somehow the bullet fits so tightly that A. I cannot seat it far enough, and B. It gets stuck in the seating die.

Not sure if I mentioned, but all the empty cases work no problem.
 
OH, That the same old problem with no space for bullet cause VARGET is taking all the space.Happened to me but I wasn't pushing the bullets too hard and then I changed to WIN 748,works flawlessly,even I tried same VARGET for .223 cause it's in the manual ,doesn't matter it's going to be OK.So no rush and drop down the charge first or change powder if you have it handy.
 
Is your reference round, which you used to set the seater stem, made with the same bullet that you are loading, or another kind of bullet? (The point on the bullet that the stem touches depends on the bullet's nose shape, so for a given OAL, the seater stem will have to be adjusted differently for different bullets.
 
So heres an update,

seated 9 rounds of the 180 grain barnes bullets with a 40-40.9 grain minimum load, also seated 15 rounds of 155 sierra hpbt rounds with a 42-44 grain charge..

No real issues, I just had to seat the barnes bullets slowly.

In some cases, looks like the casings are scraping the bullet. Is this normal?
 
NitwiT said:
In some cases, looks like the casings are scraping the bullet. Is this normal?
Click to expand...

Chamfer the mouth of the case...

FWIW, the 180 TTSX was definitely not designed for the .308win. It's better served in a cartridge that will provide enough velocity to penetrate and open reliably. If you have to shoot minimum loads just to get the COL, then I would skip it all together.

I do like barnes bullets, but in my .308's I prefer 150gr or 168gr...Even on moose/elk...;)
 
You are using WW brass which has a generous capacity compared to some others. I checked my Speer manual for 180gr .308 loads and note that they show compressed loads for a 180gr bullet with most propellants in IMI (heavier MILSPEC brass). Some exceptions are H335,W748,and IMR4895(the performance benchmark in the .308 Win).

You might try IMR4895 or W748 (as suggested by Rojam) and see what happens. I've always had good results with both of these in the .308 Win. And remember-accuracy kills better than velocity.

As has been suggested,you might want to back the bottom of your seating die away from contact with the shellholder ( to avoid crimping the bullet) and then use the seating rod to establish your seating depth.
 
ok, so I chose to large of a round, I can deal with that.

Should I be backing the seating die out farther than one full turn?

And to what blargon has written, should I just resell the 180 grains that I have, and grab some 168 grain? The whole point of that bullet of choice was to make sure I only had to shoot once.

On that same note, looking in my barnes manual, minimum load with a 180 grain has a velocity of 2375, and minimum load witha 165 grain has a velocity of 2475. Now I'm wondering, exactly how fast does this bullet need to be moving at what ranges to ensure proper function.
 
If you back the seating die out 1 full turn from contact with the shell holder this should avoid having the case mouth contact the crimping shoulder of the seating die-assuming that the resized brass is within the specified max length after resizing. You can experiment with this to verify just how much clearance is necessary to avoid crimping.

168gr .308 bullets are constructed for target shooting,not hunting. A host of good 165gr hunting bullets are available for the .308-Nosler,Hornady,Sierra,Speer,etc. All of these kill well given proper shot placement. Neither a premium bullet,nor high velocity,will compensate for poor accuracy. If you are after deer,moose,elk,or bear a 165gr bullet is a good all-round choice.

I do not use Barnes bullets,nor do I have their reloading data. A typical 165gr hunting bullet,like the Sierra Gameking,will have a MV of 25-2600fps in the 308 Win with a number of different propellants. Provided that shooting distances are within reason ( I set a personal limit of 300 yds and most of my kills have come at ranges less than 150yds), and shot placement is good, terminal performance on a game animal will be satisfactory.
 
Ok Purple, I understand what you say, and I did mean 165 grain.

My question still stand, will a 180 grain barnes ttsx bullet perform at the speed of 2000 fps.

this is assuming a shot within 200 yards
 
NitwiT said:
Ok Purple, I understand what you say, and I did mean 165 grain.

My question still stand, will a 180 grain barnes ttsx bullet perform at the speed of 2000 fps.

this is assuming a shot within 200 yards
Click to expand...

Barnes make .308 TTSX/TSX bullets in 130gr, 150gr, 165gr & 168gr, 180gr, 200gr, ALL for hunting...

Barnes has suggested that the minimum impact velocity with the TTSX/TSX bullets should be 1800-2000, regardless of which weight you are using. Under that they say the bullet may or may not work as advertised.

I would use the lighter weights because, with 100% weight retention, you don't need a heavy bullet to penetrate. There have been a few guys on here that have done testing with the lighter weights, and one test showed the 130gr TTSX penetrated as far as any 180gr.

When it comes to Barnes bullets, velocity DOES kill, as long as you have the accuracy to go with it...These are not your old lead core soft points...
 
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