TT33 variant ID help.

Gillen1

Gillen1

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So at my local shop I saw a Tokarev in the used case, and I decided to buy it. I don't recognize any of the markings. I googled it and saw one post saying it could be Bulgarian.

I have no idea. The frame and slide match, as well as the trigger group. The barrel has no serial number, but it does have an arrow pointing towards the muzzle end.

Mag is different as well, not matching but not like any tokarev I have ever seen before. Here are a few pics.

http://imgur.com/a/frD9n. Pics there


Thoughts?
 
I'm totally stumped. I've never seen that front sight profile before. Looks similar to a M57 sight but not exactly.

I've seen photos of that type of magazine before but there was no conclusive determination about its origin.
 
Can you post a photo of the grips?

Assuming they're the originals, each country that made the Tokarev had some kind of national identifier on the grips.(for the most part)
 
I can't get more pictures yet as I don't have it transfered yet. But the grips are black with a star but has no lettering on them to show any origin.
 
After reading the various pieces of literature I have on Tokarev pistols and searching the various forums I have found no evidence of Bulgaria ever having manufactured any TT pistols. The general consensus seems to be that they did not have the industrial capacity to manufacture military quality pistols until post-war Russian assistance and that their first domestically produced pistol was the Makarov.

There are two posts by posters who I do not know from the high road and from gunboards claiming that the magazines with the fold / weld seam are Bulgarian. I managed to find some detailed photos of the magazines from all angles and they do not have a Bulgarian military property marking nor do they have the Factory 10 arsenal markings.

The best clue so far has been "There should be a "10" hand stamped on the trigger guard. Factory 10 is located in Sofia, Bulgaria". If there is indeed a 10 stamp on the trigger guard it may indicate it was made at Factory 10 in Sofia. However, there seems to be no record of Bulgarian TT manufacturing and if it did take place, it must have been in very small quantity. More than likely, they simply reprofiled the front sight and stamped their own serial numbers on Izhevsk manufactured pistols made for them by the Russians.
 
Tomorrow I will be going back to the shop to check out the trigger guard area.

Anyone care to guess what this will be worth? I probably won't be keeping it. I'm not into collecting these and don't need 3 TT-33's.
 
Discussion about same pistol on guns.ru.
http://forum.guns.ru/forum_light_message/81/961950.html
No clear consensus in there, some say its may be Yugo version before they started making their own 9round M57. They don't know jack either
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May be even east german for Bulgaria as the mag assembly made ala P38 mag manner. Just a thought.
Price wise if not molested probably well above 600.
Not very common variant anyway.
 
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I never looked on Non English sites, really limited myself eh.

I'll go look at it tomorrow again and take better pics. Condition wise it looks just like the others pictured. Great shape and some blue wear on the muzzle end.

That value seems reasonable especially since it seems like like only a handful seem to exist.
 
gewehr76 said:
Discussion about same pistol on guns.ru.
http://forum.guns.ru/forum_light_message/81/961950.html
No clear consensus in there, some say its may be Yugo version before they started making their own 9round M57. They don't know jack either
...

May be even east german for Bulgaria as the mag assembly made ala P38 mag manner. Just a thought.
Price wise if not molested probably well above 600.
Not very common variant anyway.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link. I should search guns.ru more often.

tl;dr from that post there is a Bulgarian collector stating that it's not Bulgarian and that Bulgaria never made TTs only Makarovs, which is in line with the published information. They also state that the (10) marking does not look like the Factory 10 arsenal marking and is coincidentally a 10 in a circle. Theories range from Yugoslavian to Hungarian. Looks Yugoslavian in sight profile, perhaps a prototype run before the M57s? I know they used Russian exported TT-33s before they made their own. It's a mystery for sure. As far as a valuation goes, well, they're definitely rare. "Rare mystery Tokarev pistol" is probably around 500-600 in this market.
 
Country codes and markings like 10 in circles and other identification markings really started to be used after Warsaw pact creation in 1955.
Before that each factory did what ever they wanted and used what ever proof markings or serial numbers they wanted on their products. Bulgarian 10 in the circle is amalgamation of many plants that made various equipment and not only guns specifically. Some plants were making diesel engines some made plows, some made limited amount of pistols before 1948. After amalgamation and making Bulgarian plants national and people owned, then that double circle 10 started being used. When warsaw pact countries made decision to drop toks and start making PM's then they started marking everything with their own military code.
So you can't really rely on those codes especially if the stuff is dating to late 40's early 50's.
bp2626 said:
Thank you for the link. I should search guns.ru more often.

tl;dr from that post there is a Bulgarian collector stating that it's not Bulgarian and that Bulgaria never made TTs only Makarovs, which is in line with the published information. They also state that the (10) marking does not look like the Factory 10 arsenal marking and is coincidentally a 10 in a circle. Theories range from Yugoslavian to Hungarian. Looks Yugoslavian in sight profile, perhaps a prototype run before the M57s? I know they used Russian exported TT-33s before they made their own. It's a mystery for sure. As far as a valuation goes, well, they're definitely rare. "Rare mystery Tokarev pistol" is probably around 500-600 in this market.
Click to expand...
 
It looks like Hipolit Cegielski made pistol. Cegielski factory was responsible for 50% of Polish TT33 production and entire PPS 43, PK MG and RPD production. Half of the products were still marked as Radom factory but Cegielski arms production was kept a secret till the early 90s. Officially Cegielski was only producing locomotives and ship engines
 
Military magazine out of Poland "Strzal" March of 2008 issue pages 17-25. It will give you whole history of TT 33 production in Poland including 2 factories that made them with serial number prefixes. Plus good description of pistols that were made for DDR
 
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