Tuner Questions

grauhanen

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GunNutz
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I don't have enough experience with tuners on .22LR rifles to answer this question: when appropriately tuned to shoot well at 50 yards, will a tuner require readjustment to shoot at 100 yards?

The intuitive answer seems to be that if the tuner helps produce excellent results at 50, they should translate to similarly excellent results at 100 yards. Is this correct?

A further question relates to the debate between the proponents of positive compensation and the advocates of the idea of a "stopped muzzle". Is there yet a consensus about this question?
 
Those are very good questions . I plan to acquire a Harrel tuner for my Anschutz MPR in the very near future . Hopefully I'll be able to add something to this discussion based upon my first hand experience .
Almost every single shooter that competes in the rimfire benchrest matches at my range uses a Harrel tuner or a home made version . I think it will certainly help as long as you're willing to put in the testing time to properly setting it up to the ammo lot that you are shooting . Not sure everyone does this correctly though .
 
G; I have a Harrells tuner on my Suhl, the rifle was BR prepped by Jim Williams.
I have found the sweet spot on this tuner for a lot # of Eley Match EPS. It shoots
in the .1's and .2's at 50M, and right around .5 at 100M.
I have tried [not extensively. though] to see if another setting would make better
100M groups, but nothing so far. I do best leaving it at the same setting as the 50M.
Dave.
 
I don't have enough experience with tuners on .22LR rifles to answer this question: when appropriately tuned to shoot well at 50 yards, will a tuner require readjustment to shoot at 100 yards?

The intuitive answer seems to be that if the tuner helps produce excellent results at 50, they should translate to similarly excellent results at 100 yards. Is this correct?

A further question relates to the debate between the proponents of positive compensation and the advocates of the idea of a "stopped muzzle". Is there yet a consensus about this question?

I generally avoid getting into these discussions, as I still don't feel like my data set is definitive even after spending two years working with tuners. I have some theories, insights, and observations, maybe I can share a little.

It would seem like the reverse is more likely to yield good results. That is, if the tuner is adjusted to shoot well at 100 yards, it'll do well going back to 50. What seems to be working at 50 yards might not hold at 100. Sometimes, a good 50 yard tune does, in fact, hold out to 100 or even 200. Explanation for the phenomenon is not so cut and dried/black and white, which leads into your final question...

I don't see a consensus on that. I see two very divided camps religiously adhering to their theories. Consider one simple fact for a moment: no official 25 shot competitive target ever shot demonstrates "positive compensation". The vertical spread due to the muzzle velocity ES of the very best lots of ammo available is apparent in all targets, to the tune of 0.150" to 0.170". How come nobody has been able to "compensate" this vertical out over several decades worth of shooting with muzzle devices/tuners?

I see some validity to both "tuning" a barrel, and "stopping" the muzzle. On the "tuning" side, you know that your naked barrel will shoot well with certain ammo under certain weather conditions. Centerfire shooters can fine tune their handloads to get some extremely good long range accuracy without a tuner, but may have different loads for cool and warm weather to do so. You cannot adjust rimfire ammo, but, through the use of a "tuner", you can adjust how your barrel responds to that ammo. What I have observed, is that with a Harrels tuner and a weight set, for a given ammo, a "tune" can be found with no weight added, a light weight, a heavy weight, and a light/heavy combo. This "tune" only works for that particular ammo, in the weather conditions of the day. Change ammo, need to re-tune. Different day, re-tune (but maybe not too far off from the previous setting). After a time, I began to feel like I was chasing my tail with "tuning".

My interpretation of my data over the last several years favors the "stopped muzzle". Goodness, it takes a great deal of shooting to thoroughly vet out tuner settings, but I find myself consistently coming back to using no weight and being in the setting range between 200 and 250. My 1/4" success was shot at 238, and a very near attempt with the worst group at 0.265" was shot at 233. Within that range, it is difficult to say there is a noticeable difference at any random setting, it all appears to be about equal. I can change ammo and do not feel the need to make any adjustments. Temperature seems to have no effect, what setting that was good in the warm is good in the cold. I haven't shot at 100 for some time, but perhaps I can take it out again and see how setting 238 does with the R-50 ammo I used for 1/4" and report back if any adjustments were needed. I'm not yet prepared to come out and definitely support the "stopped muzzle", but I will say I am leaning in that direction. This future 100 yard test will be interesting, and I think I should also do it over a chronograph. That'll reveal if the muzzle is "stopped", and the vertical is attributable to MV variation alone (which seems to be impossible to "compensate" for).
 
I generally avoid getting into these discussions, as I still don't feel like my data set is definitive even after spending two years working with tuners. I have some theories, insights, and observations, maybe I can share a little.

It would seem like the reverse is more likely to yield good results. That is, if the tuner is adjusted to shoot well at 100 yards, it'll do well going back to 50. What seems to be working at 50 yards might not hold at 100. Sometimes, a good 50 yard tune does, in fact, hold out to 100 or even 200. Explanation for the phenomenon is not so cut and dried/black and white, which leads into your final question...

I don't see a consensus on that. I see two very divided camps religiously adhering to their theories. Consider one simple fact for a moment: no official 25 shot competitive target ever shot demonstrates "positive compensation". The vertical spread due to the muzzle velocity ES of the very best lots of ammo available is apparent in all targets, to the tune of 0.150" to 0.170". How come nobody has been able to "compensate" this vertical out over several decades worth of shooting with muzzle devices/tuners?

I see some validity to both "tuning" a barrel, and "stopping" the muzzle. On the "tuning" side, you know that your naked barrel will shoot well with certain ammo under certain weather conditions. Centerfire shooters can fine tune their handloads to get some extremely good long range accuracy without a tuner, but may have different loads for cool and warm weather to do so. You cannot adjust rimfire ammo, but, through the use of a "tuner", you can adjust how your barrel responds to that ammo. What I have observed, is that with a Harrels tuner and a weight set, for a given ammo, a "tune" can be found with no weight added, a light weight, a heavy weight, and a light/heavy combo. This "tune" only works for that particular ammo, in the weather conditions of the day. Change ammo, need to re-tune. Different day, re-tune (but maybe not too far off from the previous setting). After a time, I began to feel like I was chasing my tail with "tuning".

My interpretation of my data over the last several years favors the "stopped muzzle". Goodness, it takes a great deal of shooting to thoroughly vet out tuner settings, but I find myself consistently coming back to using no weight and being in the setting range between 200 and 250. My 1/4" success was shot at 238, and a very near attempt with the worst group at 0.265" was shot at 233. Within that range, it is difficult to say there is a noticeable difference at any random setting, it all appears to be about equal. I can change ammo and do not feel the need to make any adjustments. Temperature seems to have no effect, what setting that was good in the warm is good in the cold. I haven't shot at 100 for some time, but perhaps I can take it out again and see how setting 238 does with the R-50 ammo I used for 1/4" and report back if any adjustments were needed. I'm not yet prepared to come out and definitely support the "stopped muzzle", but I will say I am leaning in that direction. This future 100 yard test will be interesting, and I think I should also do it over a chronograph. That'll reveal if the muzzle is "stopped", and the vertical is attributable to MV variation alone (which seems to be impossible to "compensate" for).

Thanks for sharing your views and experience. The information that I've read on RFC forums and member PMs, for example, has left me a little uncertain about what to give credence to. Not to raise it for discussion here, but there seems to be some level of disagreement on many aspects of tuners -- lightweight (turned down) vs standard weight H/H tuners, PRX formula vs others among them, not to mention positive compensation vs stopped muzzle -- that it can be not only somewhat confusing but a little intimidating as well.
 
G; I have a Harrells tuner on my Suhl, the rifle was BR prepped by Jim Williams.
I have found the sweet spot on this tuner for a lot # of Eley Match EPS. It shoots
in the .1's and .2's at 50M, and right around .5 at 100M.
I have tried [not extensively. though] to see if another setting would make better
100M groups, but nothing so far. I do best leaving it at the same setting as the 50M.
Dave.

Thanks, Dave. You mention one particular ammo that gives you excellent results. Does the tuner need readjustment for other ammo at 50 yards in order to get very good results, even if they may not be quite as good as with your select lot of Eley EPS Match?
 
Thanks, Dave. You mention one particular ammo that gives you excellent results. Does the tuner need readjustment for other ammo at 50 yards in order to get very good results, even if they may not be quite as good as with your select lot of Eley EPS Match?

Yes, I need to readjust. However, the amount of adjustment is generally not great.
Exception is when I try ammo with a fair velocity difference. The stuff that is best
in my Suhl is at 1059 fps in Eley's tests.
 
"Perhaps I'm wrong but I believe they are on the export restricted list."

I think you are right. I was told that anything that can be attached to a gun is on the restricted list.
Tools including head space gauges etc... good.
Sights, scopes, grips, tuners, etc... not so much.
 
what works well for me at 50 also held out to 100, the greatest force to overcome at either distance is still the wind......
 
I ordered a Tuner from Harrelson not that long ago, and it came to me without any issues.
Perhaps things have changed though. If so, mea culpa for the last post, Dave.
 
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