Tuning Savage action - screw torque

Bolivar

Bolivar

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I found this article on ways to tune the Savage Action via the torque on the screws.

http://www.accurateshooter.com/technical-articles/savage-action-screw-torque-tuning/

I'd like to know if anybody here has tried the method of tuning. Does it work or is it a waste of time?

Also, the article seems to say that you need to fine adjust the rear most screw to get the best accuracy....but this screw just holds the trigger guard to the stock. Am I missing something?
 
clatartar said:
It kind of makes sense but, I'd still prefer to bed the action rather then stressing it by torquing down the action...
Click to expand...

The action is still bedded into the stock but the amount of torque put on the screws is still obviously variable, and yes, it does make a difference. I ended up with the same results as in the article and now use the same torque 30in/lb in the front, 25in/lb in the rear. I suggest trying this out if your interested, you may be surprised at the results.
 
VLP DBM 223. Model 12 action with three screws.

I actually just took another detailed look at the photo in the article and at my action.

The photo shows two front action screws very close together on what I assume is a Palma or FT/R model.

I assume that these are located at the front of the action where I have one screw. Then behind the magazine is the rear action screw on mine.

The third screw is a wood screw that holds the back of the trigger guard in place. I can't have a bearing on how the action sits in the stock, I I would hate to torque it up as much as the action screws for fear of stripping the hole.

I may experiment with this to see if I get different accuracy results. Of course I then have to wonder if this will be different for different loads?

Maybe I am just plain thinking about this too hard and making things more complicated than necessary?
 
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If the action is bedded properly and the action bolts supported with durable pillars. The effects of action bolt torque is minimized.

Of course, taking a 3ft wrench is going to do some effect.... like damage. Hand snug, that is all that is needed. Action bolts are there simply to keep the action from lifting out of the inletting NOT support the action.

The Savages in the article are supposed to be fully factory rifles so ARE NOT BEDDED. They have very generous inletting so torque can and will affect how the action bends and where it is held in place. This can and will affect tuning of the firing especially if the ammo is held static.

Now if there was a stable setting and the action left at that, and it actually didn't move or change, changes in the ammo would yield the same result.

Problem with an unbedded action AND using torque is you have a moving target. The action WILL move eventually and that changes the torque setting. Now what????

Same problem/solution recommended by many 'tactical' rifle shooters and they V block bedding.

Bed it properly, secure and support that recoil lug and action bolt torque within normal ranges will have little affect.

Jerry
 
A barrel vibrates like a tuning fork when fired, the receiver is your hand holding the tuning fork. How you "grip" the tuning fork will control how it vibrates.

Below please notice the receiver, stock "AND" barrel flex and vibrate when the rifle is fired.

e1-bare-movie.gif


barrelvibes.jpg


Some military rifles have "steps" cut in the barrel at the vibration node points used to control barrel vibrations.

IMGP0993.jpg


A Remington 700 uses 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure similar to the No.4 Enfield to control barrel vibrations.

RSbedding_0303E.jpg


RSbedding_0303D.jpg


Torquing the action screws (bedding pressure) effects how the barrel will vibrate and thus accuracy. NOTE: The USMC M40A3 (Rem 700SA) sniper rifle with glass bedding is torqued to 40 inch pounds.



fatwrench.jpg


Generic stock torque settings

Wood stocks - 25 inch pounds
Synthetic stocks -45 inch pounds
Synthetic stocks with bedding blocks 65 inch pounds.

uppressure.jpg


Below my Remington 700 with a "non"-floating barrel and 3 to 9 pounds of up pressure at the fore end tip, and my Stevens 200 with factory floating barrel. Both rifles can be "fine tuned" by torquing the action screws.

IMGP7358.jpg
 
Mystic Precision said:
If the action is bedded properly and the action bolts supported with durable pillars. The effects of action bolt torque is minimized.

Of course, taking a 3ft wrench is going to do some effect.... like damage. Hand snug, that is all that is needed. Action bolts are there simply to keep the action from lifting out of the inletting NOT support the action.

The Savages in the article are supposed to be fully factory rifles so ARE NOT BEDDED. They have very generous inletting so torque can and will affect how the action bends and where it is held in place. This can and will affect tuning of the firing especially if the ammo is held static.

Now if there was a stable setting and the action left at that, and it actually didn't move or change, changes in the ammo would yield the same result.

Problem with an unbedded action AND using torque is you have a moving target. The action WILL move eventually and that changes the torque setting. Now what????

Same problem/solution recommended by many 'tactical' rifle shooters and they V block bedding.

Bed it properly, secure and support that recoil lug and action bolt torque within normal ranges will have little affect.

Jerry
Click to expand...

Thanks Jerry - what would you recommend as a "normal" torque range the laminate stock on this particular Savage. 40-60lbs? I can put a lot of torque on by had with an Allen wrench. I might as well use the torque wrench I bought for this (Okay, I told my wife it was for the maintenance on our outboard but.....)
 
If the action is bedded properly, very little torque is needed.

The goal is for the bolt to be tight enough so it doesn't loosen under normal use... THAT'S IT!.

And if an action is properly bedded, action bolts DON'T loosen under normal use when snug.

The action is locked into the bedding so will not move under firing. Again, the role of the action bolts is simply to keep the action and stock from separating. No more, no less

Just firm hand tight is all that is required. I cringe when torque wrenches are 'required' in the tuning a rifle

And you are thinking INCH/lbs... NOT FT/lbs like you would for a tire lug bolt.

You might actually have to use the torque wrench on that outboard.

Jerry
 
Jerry

Yes, the wrench is in lbs. Sorry, I should have been clear. As for the outboard, it is worth way more than my entire rifle collection, plus my wife actually uses it too. Very valuable to the whole family.

Anyway, I will take an educated guess based on some of the other posts as to a number that relates to hand tight.


Edit - all done. Tightened each until I heard the stock crack and then backed off a quarter turn :D
 
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Mystic Precision said:
If the action is bedded properly, very little torque is needed.

The goal is for the bolt to be tight enough so it doesn't loosen under normal use... THAT'S IT!.

And if an action is properly bedded, action bolts DON'T loosen under normal use when snug.

The action is locked into the bedding so will not move under firing. Again, the role of the action bolts is simply to keep the action and stock from separating. No more, no less

Just firm hand tight is all that is required. I cringe when torque wrenches are 'required' in the tuning a rifle

And you are thinking INCH/lbs... NOT FT/lbs like you would for a tire lug bolt.

You might actually have to use the torque wrench on that outboard.

Jerry
Click to expand...

You have a wooden stock that is glass bedded to perfection as you state, what do you do when the humidity changes and the wood swells. What is hand tight to a Gorilla and what is hand tight to a 12 year old girl. Torque is the same on a wet day as it is on a dry day and the 12 year old girl and the Gorilla can both feel and hear the "click" of the torque wrench.

When the guy in the service station hand tightened my lug nuts and they sheared off when I had to change my tire I wanted to hit this "hand tight" Gorilla mechanic over the head with my torque wrench.

Here have a "hand tightened" bolt done by a Gorilla.

capscrew.gif


collargauge-a.jpg


The bushing or collar on the Enfield rifle trigger guard is used to prevent wood crush, pillar bedding is used for the same reason. Torquing the action screws allows for accurate and repeatable stock bedding forces, and hand tight to you will be different than my hand tight after 38 years as a mechanic with a Gorilla wrist. ;)

k-screw-2a.jpg


I spent the last 25 years at a military overhaul depot as a Quality Control Inspector, there is NO setting or value for hand tight.

Torque joke

Inspector to mechanic:
Did you torque those bolts?

Mechanic:
Yes I torqued the bolts, I tightened them until the threads started to smoke and then gave the bolts two more full turns.

pp3.jpg
 
Went out and tried this tonight with the 110BA. Two front screws tightened to 30in lbs, then worked up the rear screw from 20 in/lbs to 30 in/lbs in 5 in/lbs increments, this gave me a nice cloverleaf hole. :)
 
bigedp51 said:
You have a wooden stock that is glass bedded to perfection as you state, what do you do when the humidity changes and the wood swells.
Click to expand...

Good reason few use straight lumber in a precision stock anymore.

There is little point in showing extremes to prove your point.

We can also do rifle testing by pulling mixed ammo from a bag and showing that the gun doesn't shoot...

If a method works for you and makes you feel comfy, go for it.

The process I use has worked for me and for those that I have worked on their rifles, and continues to produce extremely small groups at very long distances despite the climate.

Is it the one and only method? Of course not but it is a pretty darn good one.

Will work for anyone including 12 yr old girls.

for how many decades have alum V block bedding been haled as a simple effective solution to bedding. just heave the magic 65 inch/lbs and voila all is good.

So much so that they maketorque wrenches preset to this magic number. I am sure you know all about these.

I have fixed so many wonky rifles that have gone from tossing flyers to bugholes. All with basic and proper bedding AND enough torque on the action bolts so they don't come loose.

Maybe I have a very educated feel????

Funny, seems these owners have the same gifted feel :D

Ever take apart a V block stocked rifle and see two thin grey lines on either side of the mag opening? Wonder what that grey powder is?

How do you maintain that perfect torque setting when the action is powdering the alum chassis as it fires?

How do you maintain that torque setting as the action bolts stretch? Or get bent from slamming into the holes in the stock?

On a properly bedded stock with adequate pillars, the action bolts only need to be tight enough so they do not loosen.

YMMV....

Jerry
 
I found this on the Savage Web site FAQ (strange place to look I know.....why it did not occur to me for several days I cannot answer :))

What is the torque spec for my action screws?

Accustock models - 40 inch pounds (including wedge screw)
Centerfire w/ synthetic stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ wood stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Centerfire w/ laminate stock - 30-35 inch pounds
Rimfire w/ any stock - 15 inch pounds

This is consistent with Jerry's hand tight IMO but gives a number that can be repeated with a torque wrench. Gives the mid range between 12 year old girl and Gorilla I expect.
 
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