Turkish Model 1888/05

kjohn

kjohn

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Tinman204, I hope you used plenty of gasket goo, here's one you can look at.



German Commission Rifle Model 1888/05
View attachment 130790

Length 49″ Cartridge 7.92x57mm
"The Ottoman Empire was hit hard by the drain on material in WWI. Its ally Germany provided aid in the form of both semi-obsolete and newer rifles. The Gewehr 1888 was revolutionary when it debuted, but by 1900 it was already falling behind in the European arms race. Replaced with the Mauser 1898, the Gew.1888 was refurbished in order to handle improved ammunition and charger loading. The en-bloc clip was abandoned and a cover placed over the exit port, with a spring and follower. Charger guides were added and a notch cut in the receiver for the more modern spitzer bullet. Many 1888/05 rifles found today will have the Ottoman’s crescent marking in various places on the receiver and bolt. But a quick look at the rear sight usually does a quicker job, as these were remarked in Farsi. 88/05s also saw a Turkish refurb process that replaced the original barrels with better fitting new ones, leaving the guns otherwise unaltered in appearance. These will be marked 7,91, usually on the underside of the barrel."



This old timer has been in the pile for a long time, possibly close to 45+ years. I have only fired a few reduced cast loads with it. Some parts do match the action and barrel, the rest are Turkish delight.

It is an AMBERG 1890.

View attachment 130791

On the rear band:

View attachment 130792

Rear sight base, left side:

View attachment 130793

Haven't good enough light to take any really decent pics. I've used my little digital microscope (that some of the more positive and helpful members here have described as a child's toy :wave:) and switched a couple to negatives to quell the glare.

It is likely that Tinman will wheedle this one out of me in the end, so I might as well let him have a wee taste now. :p

Any input is welcome. :)
 
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They are a beautiful looking rifle and so very smoooth!

I picked up a pair of these when they were so very cheap, one completely reworked and refinished by Johnny Turk, the other reassembled from bits and pieces and not refinished. They were, respectively, an 1891 Loewe and an 1898 Amberg. And then began the mystery.

I had to pull them both down in order to get all the grease out of them and discovered markings I did not yet know on the Receiver Rail. The Loewe announced itself as a Gew. 88 but the Amberg was marked as a Gew. 88 nA.... and I had no idea what the nA stood for. I queried a couple of much older collectors who specialised in German rifles and I got an answer. Herewith, I pass it on to you.

Most people know that the 88 had a more-than-checkered history and that there was serious trouble when they were introduced. To be specific, CHAMBERS were lifting out, which is not the kind of thing to endear the rifle to the shooter. Critics seized upon the fact that the fellow who designed that lovely tubular-steel handguard was Jewish -- and was making RM 1 per rifle for the use of his patent -- and promptly branded the "defective" rifle as the JUDENFLINTE: the "Jew-musket". The press campaign was nasty but, in the background, far wiser and less-excitable heads were working on the problem.

In the end it turned out that the RIFLE was safe enough but the NEW smokeless powder was not as predictable as the old Black powder and, if things did not go absolutely perfectly when the stuff was made, pressure levels COULD become highly variable. The POWDER problem was got under control fairly quickly and the ammunition became very stable and with predictable pressures and downrange performance (both highly desirable in a military rifle).

The OTHER set of wiser heads (there were two) came up with a completely different solution to the problem.... and the late rifles were marked "nA" for "neuer Art" or, in English, "new Design". The NEW DESIGN consisted of a MUCH heavier chamber section to the barrel, one which extended forward far enough to add the guts of a POUND to the weight of the finished rifle. With something such as THAT, the rifle could handle almost ANY pressure which could be stuffed into a 57mm casing. My Loewe is an 1891, the Amberg is an 1898, so I have pretty much a representative "set" of sorts: one early, one late, one privately-built, one Government-built, one original and one with the New Design.

So what are the actual chances of blowing-up one of the early rifles? I have no idea and I really don't have any great desire to find out. I DO know that my 1891 Loewe, with the original LIGHTWEIGHT chamber section, once digested a box of unknown 7.92x57 ammo which I later discovered was a special AP loading for high-speed AIRCRAFT machine-guns..... and did it without a bobble and no discomfort apart from rather a sore shoulder for a couple of days. The rifle still appears perfect and shows NO evidence of having been mistreated in this fashion. As to what the 1898 Amberg will digest, I have no desire to find out! With that Truck-axle rear section to the barrel, I am sure it would survive just about any handloading mistake one could conceive.

The 1888 Kommissionsgewehr is one of the nicest-balanced, smoothest and PRETTIEST of all Nineteenth-Century military rifles. It is also quite accurate, just so long as you don't overheat it. It is indeed a pity that, 129 years after its introduction, it still is being looked-at askance by so many people.
 
Very nice rifle. Just a couple points to add. The cover on the bottom of the magazine didn't actually come out until WWI, the reason being is Gewehr 88 and 88'S' were still being used in service as well as 88/05s and since one didn't need the cover the other didn't have it. You can find pictures of just before WWI where the cover on the magazine isn't there, and some on the magazines are actually dated 1914 (not all are dated) as they quickly realized it was a good idea (the 88s received one with a spring plunger in the bottom to all them to eject the clips like a Garand). In the one book in my collection on them there is a German sailor with a 88/05 and no magazine cover.

The main reason they got called the Jewenflinte is because when they were first issued they were literally blowing up rifles. When the rifles were first adopted there was no proofing system other than about every 100 rifles they would fire 5rds of service ammo through a rifle (which isn't really proofing rather a test of function). Coupled with poor gas venting (hence the gas shield added to the cocking knob on pretty much every Gewehr 88 out there) it was pretty bad for the person shooting. The German government didn't know what was causing the rifles to blow up so they said nothing. By saying nothing it allowed the anti-Semites to jump on the story and blame it on the Jews, as a good portion of the rifles were made at Loewe a Jewish company. The Germans actually had to double the amount of inspectors at Loewe due to public pressure at this time.

The three major causes of the rifles blowing up were the rifling wasn't deep enough in the barrels, thin chambers, and poor quality ammo. This resulted in eventually 3 main different depths of rifling being possible for the Gewehr 88 rifles (the initial bore diameter, a mid range one, and a late one). The Chambers you already got the down low on above. The ammo though is something not often touched on. When smokeless powder was first developed it wasn't as easy as one might think. The powder the Germans initially was pretty poor quality, and would actually deteriorate causing the ammo to increase in pressure as time went on. By time went on I mean about 6 months to a year, and it significantly increased the pressure. Coupled with poor metallurgy of the brass cases (because it isn't just straight brass) it took a bit to figure out.

Definitely cool rifles with tons of underappreciated history. Lots of misinformation and 'facts' floating around on them which have been disproven. As Smellie mentioned one of the smoothest actions out there, and from what little shooting I have done with my 88/05 pretty accurate (basically a free floated barrel in that barrel jacket). If you do intend to shoot it, slug your bore to figure out your bore diameter. Most are .3215 in diameter and due to lack of truly understanding the pressures of smokeless powder I recommend using light loads with .321 bullets (.32 Winchester Special bullets), or cast bullets with appropriate loads. That being said the last loading used in these rifles specifically for the 88/05 conversion was a 154grn spitzer flatbased bullet at 2850ft/sec (Patrone 'S') which isn't very light. Use caution and enjoy!

A couple pictures of my 88/05. A 1891 Loewe. Also included is a picture of when I last shot it (it has unfortunately been a while). My personal shooting skills aren't the greatest, but for shooting at 100m with irons I am happy with it. 20rds fired, 20 on paper what more can you ask for?

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Infanteriegewehr 88 or Gewehr 1888 and Ammunition

I have made a summation of some of the markings and ammunition as it applies to the Gew 88.

The Germans copied the rifling of the 1886 Lebel rifle in their hurry to get a smokeless powder rifle into production. A bore diameter 7.9mm (0.311”) was adopted and with a grove depth of 0.10mm (0.003937”) and rifling width of 4.5mm (0.177”), with 4 groves with a right twist.

The original 88 bullet had a weight of 14.7 grams (226.9 grains) and a diameter of 8.1mm (0.319”).

The bullet jacket and rifling combination resulted in 50% of the rifles returned in 1897 needing new barrels.

After testing it was found that increasing the grove depth from 0.10mm (0.003937”) to a grove depth of 0.15mm (0.0059”), for a total grove diameter of 8.2mm (0.3228” or 0.323”) solved the barrel problem.

The new grove depth was adopted in July 7, 1896 by a Prussian “All-Highest Decree” N0. 10 345.

All new and converted rifles with the 0.15mm depth groves were stamped with a “Z”.

“S ammunition” adopted by order of 4/3/1903, No. 251.03. The “S” bullet had a diameter of 8.22mm (0.3236”). The larger bullet needed the chamber to be modified as the 1888 case was still used.

The rifles with the modified chambered rifles for the “S” cartridge were marked with an “S”.

The War Ministry ordered that only 1888 rifles with new unused barrels be adapted for the “S” cartridge.

The early production 1898 Mausers were also stamped with a 2.5mm “S” on the head of the breech and on the barrel when converted to the “S” cartridge.

Original 1888 Barrel = ((0.1mm)+(7.9mm)+(0.1mm)) = 8.1mm = 0.3188976” or ~ 0.319”

Barrels after July, 7 1896 = ((0.15mm)+(7.9mm)+(0.15mm)) = 8.2mm = 0.3228346” or ~ 0.323”

“S” bullet diameter = 8.22mm = 0.323622” or ~ 0.324”

“S” bullet diameter minus bore diameter = 8.22mm – 8.2mm = 0.02mm = 0.0007874”

MARKINGS

2mm diameter dot = Modified barrel contours, post 1891.

Z 3mm high = Deepened rifling groves, post 1896. A large 7mm “Z” may also be stamped on the right side of the butt.

S 3mm high = Rifles suitable altered for S-Munition. 1903-5. An additional 7mm crowned “S” may be found on the right side of the butt.

n 2mm high = Signifies an 88/14 conversion, 1914-15.

Unit marking are generally located on the left side of the barrel band, and occasionally on the top service of the butt plate. For example ( 132.R.5.116 )


Cartridge examples.

Cartridge Powder Gas Pressure Velocity Powder Type

88 = 2.67 g Gew.Bl.P. (1890-91) = 3350 atm. = 610 m/s = Ethyl acetate till 1899.

88 = 2.63 g Powder 436 (1898) = 2700 atm. = 620 m/s = Ethyl alcohol powder.

98 = 3.2 g S 682b (1903) = 3100 atm. = 870 m/s = Ethyl alcohol w/diphenylamine. (Original “S” cartridge with the original 9.8 gram bullet)

610 m/s = 2001 ft/sec
620 m/s = 2034 ft/sec
870 m/s = 2854 ft/sec

One atmosphere = 101.325 kPa = 14.70 pounds per square inch
3100 atm = 45,557 pounds per square inch


“S” and “sS” cartridges.

Cartridge Charge Bullet form Bullet weight Velocity (Vo)

“S” = 98 = 3.2 g = short concave arched base = 10.2 grams = 895 m/s = 2936 ft/sec
“sS” = 98 = 2.85 grams = long torpedo shape = 12.8 grams = 785 m/s = 2575 ft/sec
Barrel lengths, 740mm = 29.13”

The “sS’ cartridge was adopted in 1918 as a long range machine gun cartridge and was the standard issue cartridge of WW2.


Rifles 88/05 and 88/14

The basic modifications’ for the rifles designated 88/05 and 88/14 were to use the 98 charger leading method instead of the original 88 Mannlicher clip that goes into and forms part of the magazine. Charger guides were added and the magazine was modified for charger loading. The rear sight was also modified for the ballistics of the “S” cartridge.

The Carbine 88 and the Rifle 91 were similarly modified. The Rifle 91 is the Carbine 88 with a stacking hook added, similar to the Carbine 98 AZs stacking hook.

The Yugoslavians’ modified 1895 Mannlicher straight pull rifles from 8x50Rmm to 8x57mm.
The 1890 Mannlicher straight pull was also modified from 8x50Rmm to 8x57mm, I believe by the Greeks.

Oil cleaning was introduced in October 1897, water had been used prior to that.

One inch = 1” = 25.4 mm
One foot = 1’ = 0.3048 m, Both from Canadian Metric Practice Guide CAN3-Z234.1-76

All dimensions in both books are in metric.

The preceding information was from “German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871 – 1945”,
By Hans Dieter Gotz. Translated by Dr. Edward Force, CCSU. Includes information on assault rifles and Sten copies.

And “The German Rifle, A comprehensive illustrated history of the standard bolt-action designs,
1871-1945”. By John Walter. Includes information on the use of captured French Chassepots
He quotes from Gotz.

German Bayonets

For German bayonets the book “World Bayonets 1800 to the present” by Anthony Carter, is a good choice. It contains pictures of 258 bayonets, 66 of them German from 1860 to WW2.

Hope this helps.

Also:
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirear...ms/92/GEW-1888-Commission-Rifles#.VGZXP5UtDIU

http://forums.gunboards.com/forumdisplay.php?14-Mannlicher-Steyr-amp-Blackpowder-Cartridge-Rifles

http://www.militaryriflejournal.com/

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann13.htm

Almost an 88

http://www.hungariae.com/Mann04.htm
 
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The 1888 had a double loading problem in that it was possible to push a cartridge into the chamber with out engaging the extractor, then pull back the bolt and attempt to chamber a second cartridge.

The forward motion of the second cartridges caused the bullet to hit the first cartridges primer and set it off.

The Jewish rifle problem was a combination of the double loading, Jewish owners of one of the private factories producing the 1888 and a rabid antisemite who published pamphlets.

This book is recommended for German Rifle enthusiasts.

“German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols 1871 – 1945”,
By Hans Dieter Gotz. Translated by Dr. Edward Force, CCSU. Includes information on assault rifles and Sten copies.
 
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Reliable has two Turkish 1888 rifle variations with their barrel jackets and look in reasonable condition.

They are probably 1888/05s or 1888/14s.

They both have the " s " stamp for the WW 1, 150 grain, 2800 fps ammunition.
 
sail32:wave:: Thank you for posting the information on the 88 et al. That info will go into my data on said rifle. :)
 
A good read for anyone interested in this topic I would recommend 'A collector's guide to the German Gew. 88 Commission Rifle' by Paul Scarlata. Not always 100% accurate but it is more accurate than the earlier books which didn't have the advantage of the internet for researching. It fully lists the 5 reasons for the rifles blowing up in the beginning. It also discusses the ammo issues to good detail.

The 'S' stamp does not mean that the rifle has a .323 barrel diameter, and do not confuse it as such. It simply means when they put the reamer in for the 'S' cartridge into the chamber it fit. They did not alter the barrel diameter in anyway with that conversion (all the ones I have slugged have had a .3215 bore, not .323). Use caution with these old rifles, part of the reason the Germans went to the M98 was all the safety features included on the rifle.
 
Look for the " z " and the " s ", for grove and chamber change.

Z 3mm high = Deepened rifling groves, post 1896. A large 7mm “Z” may also be stamped on the right side of the butt.

S 3mm high = Rifles suitable altered for S-Munition. 1903-5. An additional 7mm crowned “S” may be found on the right side of the butt.
 
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@ sail32

Thanks very much for this additional information. With this, if people read carefully, the few surviving 1888s in the country should be safe from almost anything...... with the possible exception of Bubba's chainsaw! Not only that, but we ALL will know a great deal more about our treasures.

Thinking around that 1 Reichsmark royalty on each rifle for the Barrel Jacket, that really COULD add up. A Reichsmark at that time was worth just about exactly a Canadian quarter and, even 40 years later, you could get a pretty nice dinner for a quarter. Considering the vast number of 1888s actually built in order to equip the huge German military of the period, at least one fellow managed to get rich from the project. It would be nice if we could think of him investing -- or even spending -- all of that money before the Mark sank so low in late 1923 that it cost RM 1,000,000,000 to send a letter from Berlin to New York!

I think almost anyone will agree that the machining and workmanship on these rifles has to represent just about the height of Nineteenth-Century manufacturing. You only have to take one apart once, to be amazed at what was actually accomplished with the rather simple machine-tools of the period..... when allied with a work-force which CARED about what they were making.

Again, thanks for all that extra detail!
 
Also be careful because there are Czech barrels with .316 dia bores out there (I believe they were put on rifles used by Uraguay or Equador, some such South American nation). Again markings don't necessarily mean much as a lot happened to those rifles in over 100 years, slug the bore if unsure.
 
Hi smellie, your welcome.

The information from the book only applies to German 1888s.

The barrel jacket was an Austrian invention, I do not remember who, and the Germans avoided paying realities because they declared it a state secret.

The Austrians tried to get them to pay but the Germans refused.

Along comes WW 1, and the Germans want the Austrians to make rifles for them. The Austrians refused until their patent claims on the barrel jacket were paid. The Germans paid, but I cannot remember the source of this information.

Only the Germans, Gewehr 1888, the Belgium 1889 and the Danish 1889 used a barrel jacket on their rifles and carbines.

From : http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?421051-Gewehr-1888-patent&

" The German Kommission Gewehr utilised several "Civilian" Patents ( Meigs Barrel Jacket, Mannlicher's Packet clip) but as far as Mannlicher was concerned, no Magazine Patent license was paid for, as the 88 Clip was an "Improvement" on the asymmetrical Mannlicher M86/88 clip; Ie, it was sufficiently different to avoid Patenting rules. Also, one must remember that Mannlicher was an EMPLOYEE of OEWG STeyr, so any patent rights of his inventions devolved to Steyr;

The development of the M92-1903 series of split bridge "Mannlicher" rifles and cartridges, with Symmetrical clips, was a follow on opf the 1890-91 Italian Rifle trials ( Rimmed and Rimless 6,5 cartridges, Mauser, Mannlicher, Kommission bolts, etc, with the end result a "Mauser" Bolt body, a Carcano Safety & FP system, a Symmetrical ( M88 type ) cartridge clip, M88 magazine and split bridge receiver. Italy did Pay O(EWG/Mannlicher License fees on the cartridge clip, but not on the Action body design.

AS to Steyr making M88s on its own, this was part of the Loewe Consortium Cartel; Loewe made M88 rifles for Imperial Germany, and farmed out some production to Steyr, in order to meet "Export" orders ( Mostly China); this is why Mannlicher could utilize the M88 design to further "Improve" it for Steyr, and get the M92/93 Romanian, with an Italian trials-inspired cartridge and symmetrical clip.

What a confusing inter-action of Corporate organisations and individual inventiveness.

Doc AV "
 
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