Two Groove enfield

H Wally

H Wally

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Anyone have any opinions on them? I've got one and am curious if there are any special considerations to be made for reloading and shooting them.

Any tendency towards greater or lesser accuracy?

Any changes needed in bullet diameter etc because of the greater surface area of the lands over a regular multi groove barrel?
 
When I got my first Number 4, I called it "William the Conqueror" because it sold at the hardware store for $10.66. It was a 2-groove and I wanted to shoot it, real bad.

Came Sunday, went to the range and Bisley Bill Brown (who had recently captained the Canadian Bisley team) looked it over and told me what I was doing wrong.

He said that the 2-groove barrel could keep up with a standard 5-groove out to 600 and advised that I put better sights on it than the Mark 2 rear sight (the little 300-600 double peep) that came with it. I was able to find a Mark 3 rear sight shortly afterwards and shot the critter.

As far as I know, there were no real considerations with the ammo. We shot regular DA and DI Service ammo, whatever the QM would issue us when we could pry a few rounds from his fingers. (Turned out years later that he had issued 10 boxes (1248 rounds per box, mind you) to himself and like quantities to a few friends, which is why the stuff was so scarce! The whole district ran on Army ammo in hunting season for YEARS!)

One reason the Canadian ammo was so accurate was that we stayed as close as possible to the upper limit of tolerance on the slugs: .312" diameter. The Brits did extensive experimenting before the Great War and found that almost ANY Lee-Enfield would shoot its best with .312" slugs. This has been known for a century now, and yet the American factories persist in turning out .311" bullets. To me, at least, this does not make sense.

Well, H Wally, you've started something. Guess I'll have to haul that big Barska off the 5-groove and put it onto one of the 2-grooves, try it out with the same ammo. Test should be completed by the time the snow flies. Good thing I have lots of ammo loaded.

Just one thing, though: do I have to test EVERY cartridge?

Huh?
 
Yes, yes you do :p


I mainly asked because I had read of cast boolits not shooting as well in two groove barrels.... didn't make any sense to me but thought I should ask anyways.
 
Well, I'm not at all sure about BOOLITS, but the Swiss did pretty well with cast bullets and their rifles only had 3 grooves. I would think this could be another of those mysterious things that "everybody knows" but which nobody can really substantiate. You know, like Rosses being piles of garbage, Carcanos not being accurate.

At the time I was writing about, we had a 900-yard range here, right on the edge of the town. It had been 1100 at one time, but the Army gave the town 100 yards on two occasions. This town was only settled first in 1879, then the population explosion started in 1881, continued in 1882 and there were other things going on, too: boundaries being changed and places being renamed. This was Gopher Creek, North West Territories for about 3 years, the Gopher Creek, Manitoba for a couple of months and then it was Manchester, Manitoba for a month or so and then they changed it to the name it has now, which is actually misspelled German and not the Gaelic that everyone supposes.
But this town raised troops for the North West Rebellion of 1885, the Second Boer War of 1899-1902, the Great War and the Second World War, and local troops saw action in all of those. There was a Militia regiment headquartered here until about 1965, which is when the Army closed out the range, tore down the Armouries and turned our lovely old rifle range (where you could still find Martini-Henry brass) over to the school board..... which demilitarised it all the way to a FOOTBALL FIELD. When they cleared out the old Armoury prior to tearing it down, one of the things they came across was a FULL CASE of .577/.450MH ammo, drawn-brass cases, which was shipped back to Ottawa... for destruction!

But we had a very active DCRA contingent here for many, many years and you could learn a lot from some of those guys. I was the youngest of the crowd and so I tried to keep ears open and mouth shut, and I picked up a few nuggets here and there.

There was no real "issue" with 2-groove barrels, but we have to remember that they were being made in some pretty peculiar and desperate times. Some of the work was nowhere nearly as slick and smooth as it should have been. If your barrel doesn't shoot, you might try lapping it with a greased lead slug which has been rolled in the finest valve-grinding compound. This just might smooth things enough to slide the slugs through instead of having them strip off in the bore. Another thing would be to run them a bit slower than FMJ. Wheelweight metal is good for about 2200 without stripping too much, but you can get the stripping right down to almost-negligible proportions by slowing them down to 2000 or even 1950. Worth a try, anyway.

But the old DCRA guys still felt that they could keep up with a 5-groove up to 600. From 600 to 900, the 5-groove was 'the' barrel to have but, for past 900, they told you to get an SMLE (preferably regulated by Fulton's, of course) and put a good set of PH receiver sights onto it. Bill Brown did that and shot a 74/75 at 1100, tying the Ross Rifle record, albeit 50 years later. BTW, they felt that the 6-groove was a nice barrel but preferred them for 500 to 800 or so, but not for the really long-range stuff. At least, that's what the guys here thought.

Darn.... that was just so LONG ago......

Must be gettin' old.

Have fun!
 
There was a Militia regiment headquartered here until about 1965, which is when the Army closed out the range, tore down the Armouries and turned our lovely old rifle range (where you could still find Martini-Henry brass) over to the school board..... which demilitarised it all the way to a FOOTBALL FIELD.
Click to expand...

Hey, cool, I lived in "Gopher Creek" for 15 years and played a lot of soccer, baseball, and even a little track and field on that old range. Every so often a chunk of brass would be heaved up, even in the 80's/ 90's.

I have a 2 groove Long Branch and a 5 and quite frankly I can't tell the difference in accuracy. The 2 groove can probably still hit minute of Nazi.

Not that I'm anywhere near as experienced or knowledgeable as smellie.
 
Wouldn't doubt it one little bit, Canuck98k. The bulls we were using ran about 3 MOA so, at 600 you were shooting an 18-inch bull on a 4-foot frame. We were using the standard 'tin hat' bull at that time, so all you had to do was put the nice tin hat on top of your front sight, breathe in...... start letting it out........ settle the bull on your sight.... stop...... final check and... PRESS the trigger, let her buck and finish your breath.

You know the folks around here. After the big range was closed, Bill and a couple of others had a private range out on Don O's farm by Elkhorn/Hargrave. I spotted for Bill one afternoon as he shot a 73/75 at 600 in a vicious switching wind that was gusting up to about 40 km/h. Those old guys REALLY knew their stuff. Iron sights, too, and issue ammo, 1951 DA if I recall.
 
Two groove 1943 Maltby at 50 yards after bedding and shimming the draws.
174 Hornady round nose, 42 grains RL-15.

Top photo 10 rounds, 50 yards and standard Mk.1 rear sight.

range-day-target.jpg


Bottom photo 5 rounds the next day with PH-5C target sight added.
(very disappointed, had two fliers) :rolleyes:

range-day-2-1.jpg


Worn barrels like long fat bullets, I had a 1943 Remington Springfield 03-A3 30-06 with a two groove barrel and it shot 170 grain flat nose (30-30) bullets the best.

I have British ammunition manuals that state for all practical purposes there is no difference in accuracy between a two groove and five groove barrels.

You will have problems with boat tail bullets because of the design of the base of the bullet. When kicked in the seat of the pants when fired the base of the boat tail bullet does not expand to bore diameter. Also if the crown or muzzle is worn it will cause the bullet to tip and yaw and hit the target sideways.

Img001-1.jpg


Img023-B.jpg


This British design bullet below has the advantage of being able to expand and seal the bore and still give excellent barrel life in machine guns.

Img023-a.jpg


boattail.jpg


Below the Finish Lapua rebated boat tail bullet a modern copy of a British design.

d46_lapua.jpg
 
Good comments on the rebated base bullet. I've shot a lot of the Calhoon .224 varmint bullets with a rebated base, almost like a half sphere on the base, and find them to be very accurate.

Now Smellie it is a small world indeed. About 4 yrs ago, when I was still living in Brandon, I got a call from a friend in Virden who said he had been given a bunch of old military stocks and wondered if I had a use for them. I drove down for a coffee and was presented with a tattered old FN rifle box containing various No4 stocks and handguards. The box was marked with the name "Sgt Brown". Most of the forestocks had the bedding worked over to one extent or another and the box even contained a length of dowelling which was obviously used as a sanding guide in the barrel channel. One "F" marked post-war blonde stock still has a Cunard Steamship Lines sticker affixed to it with the name, "J.B. Brown Rm #31".

My friend did'nt know anything about this, but my deduction was that Sgt Brown was a very serious No4 shooter who had obviously made a trip to Bisley, most likely in the 1950s. I'm thinking that this gentleman is the same man to whom you have referred???

On the topic of the 12th Manitoba Dragoons, a reserve armoured regiment headquartered in Virden, MB until disbanded in 1965, you will be interested to know that the unit was maintained on the Army rolls for some time after it's disbandment. When I attended the Army Command and Staff College in Kingston,ON in 1974 we worked with a notional corps organization as a context within which to study operations at the battalion, brigade, and divisional levels. One of the armoured regiments within the organization was none other than the 12th Dragoons. As you know, the 12th MD museum is located at the Brandon Armouries and the regimental association remains alive, complete with a website, some 45 yrs after the unit was disbanded.
 
Yes, Bill was carried on the Army rolls as a Sergeant, but that was his rank for peacetime Militia purposes. During the Second Global Unpleasantness (1939-1945) he did some hazy work with CounterIntelligence, partly to do with the CATP. Bill talked about it a bit, but very little. I think the only people he mentioned it to were my shooting buddy (whose funeral I must attend today) and myself. His wartime rank was Captain or possibly higher. I DO know that in the 1960s, he was carrying Sergeants' rank..... but he had the authority to order-up a twin-engined aircraft to fly the shooting team to Winnipeg, then to Ottawa. Mere Sergeants do NOT have that kind of authority, as you are well aware.

There was a good deal of SHTF planning in the '60s and part of the planning was for Bill to be Number 2 man in this district if martial law was declared. Number 1 would have been Capt. D.C.M. Elliot (great initials, but his decorations included just about everything EXCEPT a DCM! He darned near had to walk leaning over if he wore them all and old Jan Pic was worse: Polish Paratroops in '38, with Polish, British, Canadian and I believe French decorations). Part of the planning was for the Cadets to be deputized to help out, under Dunc's authority, following the mobilization of the Dragoons.

I suppose that most of that paperwork got shredded accidentally. What I have is strictly word-of-mouth from the people themselves. Dunc was my Dad's best friend and they talked, Dad being RCAF at one time. Dunc did some work with a hairy bunch known in the coffee-table books as the Lovatt Scouts and ran a group composed of 47 snipers in the invasion of France. One of the preferred rifles, he told me in all seriousness (I have handled one of the rifles) was a scoped Model 70...... in .270! He said that they didn't worry about it being a nonmilitary calibre because the Nasties weren't taking snipers as prisoners anyway and the .270 gave them more than 100 yards effective over the .303. Something to research next year, I guess: Winchester records are all just a day and a half from here.

XII Dragoons, as a regiment, had sky-high morale, even though the equipment was older than some of the men. Our Fireflies were GM 1945 and the ammo was older. The MGs were 1943; I was born a year later! MG ammo was US-made stuff, older than Methusaleh, and at the time of the Cuba thing, we were on 2 hours' notice to pick up our tanks, which were at Shilo. When they cashiered the Regiment, morale went through the floor. Not many guys bothered to go to Brandon for 26 Field. They felt it was an insult, expecting Armoured troops to operate as Artillery!

Your "J.B. Brown" undoubtedly is Bill, although his actual name was William J. Somebody got confused or something. I have Bill's copy of the TEXT BOOK OF SMALL ARMS - 1909, with owners' signatures going back to the Great War. I guess I should put my own name in it, too. He was the rifle coach for the Cadet corps as well as for the Squadron and he darned well taught us how to shoot! But that's your man, allright. And that whole crowd was VERY serious about accuracy and how to get it. Too bad they are all gone now. Fortunately, a few of us young pups (I am 65 now) kept our ears open.

Have fun!
 
Purple: forgot to mention: Bill did the trip to Bisley 6 times in all. I know for sure he was there in '62 but I'm not sure what other years. I do know that his Bisley years were pretty much in a block and, after that, he couldn't get time off from work to go again. He had a very nice letter from HM up on the wall in his gun room. Rather restrained but AWFULLY impressive!

He used the SMLE (Fulton-regulated, of course) at the Games in Jamaica, shooting out over the water, got a 74/75 at 1100 (I believe), last time that distance was shot. I know I sure couldn't do it!

He also tested the very first 7.62mm Number 4 conversion on the Short Siberia range at Bisley and later on the longer range. I have shot the rifle and it was very nice: rosewood dowels and bedding blocks in the forestock. With my own ammo, I shot a nice 3-1/4-inch group with it at 300 measured, PH sights, of course. It would do just about the same with DA-56 if you had some lying about. Nice rifle!
 
There is not a thing wrong with 2 groove Enfields at all. A friend of mine drilled and tapped an old sporter for a guy and mounted a 3-9x scope that the guy wanted. He took it to his camp to sight it in and it grouped so well he thought he would try it at 200 yards. He broke seven beer bottles with seven rounds, this from a 100 year old rifle. The guy that owned it said,"Jeez, that's pretty good, isn't it?"
 
The war fighting role of the Cdn Army Militia pretty much atrophied in the "Mutually Assured Destruction" scenario in the late 1950s where people saw little possibility of conventional warfare following a US/USSR strategic nuclear exchange. This led military planners to focus on the role of "re-entry operations"/"national survival"/"snakes and ladders" for the Militia where reserve units were trained to survey and move into urban centers to render humanitarian relief and re-establish law and order in the aftermath of nuclear strikes. These were the days of air raid sirens in the cities and DIY basement fall-out shelters. I know that the 14th Cdn Hussars, a semi-rural unit from Swift Current,SK, was given a considerable amount of special training and equipment for this role.

I had a glimpse of this in the late 1960s when one of my secondary duties as a young Lt was to operate a NUDET(nuclear detonation) monitoring and reporting post located in the downwind radiation fallout pattern from Toronto. There I would be in my private little bunker complete with radiation monitoring equipment, battery powered comms to Ottawa, a supply of water and hard rations, and a 9mm Browning ready to report the destruction of Toronto:(. Some job for a prairie boy.:rolleyes: Being a thoughtful and resourceful young man I had also scoped out the young secretaries to find one who would accompany me to "help with the paperwork".:adult: Thankfully it never came to this, although I did get to meet some attractive young ladies during the planning and preparation process.;)

Back to Sgt Brown's stash of No4 stocks. I used one of his Cdn maple forends and handguards, along with a maple butt that I had, to restore a cut down 74L Long Branch, and it turned out quite nicely. I also have his center bedded "F" marked laminate forend and matching handguards that I would like to use some day, provided that I can locate a matching laminate buttstock.:cool:

On the Sherman tanks. I learned to drive the twin GM diesel M4A2E8 at the Armoured Corps School in Borden. That was a lot of fun for a young fellow who had grown up with a blackface from banging around the summerfallow on a Massey '44 and an IHC WD9 tractor:). There were a number of these, with turrets removed, that were used as driving trainers and Kangaroo APCs for the Infantry. There was also a white painted one that was used as a target for the ENTAC and SS11 ATGMs with dummy warheads. I turned down a chance to drive that one as I did'nt relish the idea of being a live target- a role that I got to play in South Lebanon many yrs later.:eek:
 
What you have is a target bedded forend modified in conformity with CF EME manual # C509. These mods were done locally by unit armourers and were performed on both .303 and 7.62 rifles used for competitive shooting. From your pics it appears that the barrel was bedded in 2 places along the channel with wood to metal clearance at the forend tip. The EMEI specified 2 bedding points for the 7.62 barrel and only one for the .303 barrel.
 
purple said:
... On the topic of the 12th Manitoba Dragoons, a reserve armoured regiment headquartered in Virden, MB until disbanded in 1965, you will be interested to know that the unit was maintained on the Army rolls for some time after it's disbandment. When I attended the Army Command and Staff College in Kingston,ON in 1974 we worked with a notional corps organization as a context within which to study operations at the battalion, brigade, and divisional levels. One of the armoured regiments within the organization was none other than the 12th Dragoons. As you know, the 12th MD museum is located at the Brandon Armouries and the regimental association remains alive, complete with a website, some 45 yrs after the unit was disbanded.
Click to expand...

RCAC Supplementary Order Of Battle:
IV PLDG
12 MD
19 AD
14 CH
 
Always thought that they should have kept a HQ troop at the very least. You can't build tradition around a Regimental Colour that smells of mothballs.... and nothing else. There needs to be continuity and tradition. If you have those, you have the makings of a Regiment.

If you haven't, you have a paper formation that you can fill up with expendables.

Napoleon, Hitler and Harkness: the Three Corporals.


Should have mentioned: It might be 45 years, but some of us are STILL p*ssed about it.
 
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