"uncharted" load developing question

22lr

22lr

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say, if I want to use poweder taht is not listed for this particular carttridge, how would I estimate safe minimal charge to start?

I am talking 7.62x25 again. I know you guys have given me some good advices in the past but this time its more of specific question. I want to use H110 for tokarev because it will be flying out of 18.5 barrel, not 4" barel. I think H110 because I have it and because it is successfully used for M1 Carbine.

Question: would that be enough to reduce the charge proportionally to reduced useable case volume? Say M1 Carbine usefull volume is 1cc and Tokarev is 0.87. Lets say bullets are same (and they are) and only shape of case and volume is different by some 13%. Can I just multiply safe minimal M1 Carbije load by 0.87 and go from there?
What am I missing?
 
If you cannot find specific mention of the powder in question being used in the caliber you are hoping to load for I would be very leary of this.
Unless you have pressure testing equiptment .
Remember overt pressure signs such as primer condition, ease of extraction, often do not show up till your 25% over design pressures.
Simply trying to extrapolate data from other similar but often very dissimilar calibers is not a safe practice, as burn rates can move around in refrence to standards that are published, by simply changing the expansion ration, case dynamics, and bullet shape and construction, and operating pressures.
I'd have to say dont do it at this point.
 
You say the bullets are the same. Are you talking about 110 grain bullets? I would not touch this powder and bullet weight for the tokarev. Small cartridge, heavy bullet and slow powder is bad juju IMO. Besides, I doubt if you could get enough powder in the case using heavy bullets. I'd tend to stick with 83 to 86 grain pills using faster buring powder regarless of the barrel length. These are known combinations.

FYI - I did see some published info for the powder in a CZ52: 15.3 gr H110, 86 gr fmj

While I have no proof of this, some people suggest that such a condition could lead to a S.E.E., (secondary explosion effect). Likely not as much of an issue with pistol rounds as opposed to rifle cartridges; however, the idea is that slow powders reach their pressure peak more slowly than faster powders. This longer period of time between the powders ignition and the pressure peak allows the bullet to move out of the case while the pressure has not yet peaked. In effect, the bullet now acts as an obstruction, causing the pressures to dangerously spike (read: KaBoom)

Whether you buy into this idea or not is for you to decide, but I think it's another reason to choose the proper powder.

http://www.sahunt.co.za/en/sahunter_The_Secondary_Explosion_Effect.aspx
Here is an article that refers to S.E.E. - worth a read:
 
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This is done all the time. Find a published load for a powder slightly faster than H110 and use that as a starting load for the H110. Don't exceed the published MV for those faster powders and you won't exceed the pressure.

e.g. Blue Dot, 2400, AA #9, Lil'Gun, and Win 296 (which is just H110).

With a 90gr bullet, I'm thinking 10-14 grs of H110.

I don't hold to the myth of tailoring powder to barrel length, but that's a pointless discussion. The SEE problem applies only to rifles using powders much slower than H110, such as H4350 and slower. In pistol cartridges, use of too little of too slow a powder will result in FTF (primer goes off, but pressure is too low to ignite the powder), or erratic MV.
 
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I got myself into trouble some time back trying to work up an unpublished load for H110.
It is very inconsistent when loaded to lower pressures. Possibly dangerously so.
I got wild velocity swings, in excess of 150 fps with the same powder charge and bullet. I was trying to use it in 44-40, using 44 mag data as a reference. (44-40 has a larger case). I was using a model 92 Winchester, capable of handling 44 Mag pressures.
It didn't begin to get consistent until I was in dangerous territory pressure wise.
Answered my question as to why it wasn't shown as a load for the 44-40 cartridge.

By the way, this is a dangerous practice, and if you are just starting out reloading, hell, even if you are experienced, give this a long second thought.
 
I wish you guys wouldn't bad mouth H110! I just dug out my records from long ago, where I was doing quite a bit of experimenting with cast bullets in a 30-06. My rifle was not tuned, for example pulling the trigger built up the muscle in the trigger finger.
Even so, I'm looking at quite a few groups, with 18.5 of H110 that are from 2¼ to 2½ inches at 100 yards.
Records of my basement loads with a bullet of about 160 grains, show 7 grains of H110 with 3 shots made one enlarged hole at 30 feet.
Another group with a 311413 bullet and 7 grains of H110, made a 1 inch group at 50 yards.
In the 44 magnum a full power, accurate load, is 24 grains of H110.
Here is an exact entry from my records, resting the revolver.

Feb 25/88,
Ruger Super Blackhawk, 7½ inch barrel.
20 grains of H110, 429421 bullet, 50/50 lino and old bullets.
5 shots at 50 yards, 1¼ inch group!

I never found H110 to be the slightest erratic at lower loads.
 
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I wasn't bad mouthing the powder H4831, but I won't back down from my statement either. Just because it didn't happen to you doesn't mean it won't.
Remember that both Winchester, and Hogdon have stated that you should not use this powder for reduced loads.
I actually emailed Hogdon to ask if they had done any load development on the 44WCF, {NO}, and asked about suggested starting points. The answer was a quite terse, don't do it!
Being a gunnut....
I watched the chronograph, and recorded the loads. It was amazing to watch it stabilize as it approached the upper range of safety.
The last loads I shot were pretty good as far as load to load variation.
It was just that it was not printing on paper any more, the rifle likes slower loads.
It bothered me though, because when you see big swings in velocity, you have to know that the pressure is doing the same.
In my case, with my loads just getting stable and the pressure approaching max, by my judgment, I could not be positive that one of those spikes might occur.
I decided that it was not worth it. I didn't pursue the load further, with other bullets for example.
I still use H110, but only where it was supposed to be used, like in my wifes 44 mag, where it shines.
 
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"...1cc..." Forget cc's. They're not a unit of measure for gunpowder.
"...if I want to use powder that is not listed..." Check another loading manual. Just because Hodgdon hasn't done any load work on your cartridge doesn't mean other companies haven't.
H110 is for large capacity cases with big bullets. .44 Mag, .454 Casull etc andthe .30 Carbine. However, there are some 'unproven as safe' 90 grain loads using H110 on Reloadersnest.
Add the W's. .reloadersnest.com/frontpage_handgun.asp?CaliberID=29
 
thanx sunray! Its the third source with 10-14 grain range for this powder. I gather 10 grains will be a good start.
 
H110 AND W296 IS NOT SAFE TO REDUCE. Go to the Hodgdon site and its on the first page of Data.

WARNINGS

For those loads listed where a starting load is not shown, start 10% below the suggested maximum load and then approach maximums carefully, watching for any sign of pressure (difficult extraction, cratered and flattened or blown primers, and unusual recoil). H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.
Click to expand...
 
You quoted this from the Hodgdon manual-----

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%.

WOW, What a terrible danger I was in for all those many, many times that I have used H110 for reduced loads in various calibres!!!
Hodgdon book says it may result in inconsistant ignition. Wow, and to think it was usually so accurate for me.
Or, a bullet may lodge in the barrel!!! Heavens. Are they stating we are not always aware that a bullet could stick in the barrel, from other causes as well, such as forgetting to put powder in the case.
Are they saying handloaders are so dumb we don't think about such things?

I just can't believe how I, along with so many other loaders that loaded H110 for light loads, have survived all these years!
 
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