Understanding the elevation knob for M14s
- Thread starter Brentn
- Start date
I think this will be an interesting topic, my pattern is a lil different. Starting with the M as low as it will go and rotating backwards mine is
M(low)
11
2
4
6
8
WC/E (perpendicular to numbers)
10(high)
Maybe we should just buy one of those Italian M1 sights off ebay and save the headache
M(low)
11
2
4
6
8
WC/E (perpendicular to numbers)
10(high)
Maybe we should just buy one of those Italian M1 sights off ebay and save the headache
Man, I would have to go find my stock sights...I have no idea where they are!
Anyway the numbers part is pretty straightforward...elevation settings in hundreds of meters.
Although personally I live and die by this canon:
3 3 4 4 5 5 6 8 8
As is: you are zeroed in at 100 yards and need to reach 200? 3 clicks/moa.
need to reach 300? another 3 moa.
need 400? another 4 moa
500 + 4 more moa
600 + 5 more moa
etc. So if you are dialed in at 100 yards and you need to get out to 500 yards, you go
3+3+4+4 clicks.
If you are at 300 yards and need to reach 800 yards, you go
4+4+5+5+6 clicks.
This will pretty much put you on the money every time with average NATO spec ammo. At least it does well with the various surplus ammos I have tried, and I think it would ballpark you on most 150 grain .308 as well.
I believe you would find the numbers to line up pretty well with that formula, but I have not looked at the norinco sights in so long I would have to check.
Hope that's useful.
Anyway the numbers part is pretty straightforward...elevation settings in hundreds of meters.
Although personally I live and die by this canon:
3 3 4 4 5 5 6 8 8
As is: you are zeroed in at 100 yards and need to reach 200? 3 clicks/moa.
need to reach 300? another 3 moa.
need 400? another 4 moa
500 + 4 more moa
600 + 5 more moa
etc. So if you are dialed in at 100 yards and you need to get out to 500 yards, you go
3+3+4+4 clicks.
If you are at 300 yards and need to reach 800 yards, you go
4+4+5+5+6 clicks.
This will pretty much put you on the money every time with average NATO spec ammo. At least it does well with the various surplus ammos I have tried, and I think it would ballpark you on most 150 grain .308 as well.
I believe you would find the numbers to line up pretty well with that formula, but I have not looked at the norinco sights in so long I would have to check.
Hope that's useful.
Eh.. call me dumb, but I still don't understand.
So with the sight bottomed out, this is 100m? The numbers on the sight don't seem to have a setting for 100m, just 2 and below that is 11.
My sight assembly is taken apart for painting, so I can't check it out and see what your talking about. I don't get to shoot the m14 very much, so really I'm just learning on how to use the sights in general.
So you're saying to ignore the numbers on the knob, and memorize the amount of clicks you move it instead?
So with the sight bottomed out, this is 100m? The numbers on the sight don't seem to have a setting for 100m, just 2 and below that is 11.
My sight assembly is taken apart for painting, so I can't check it out and see what your talking about. I don't get to shoot the m14 very much, so really I'm just learning on how to use the sights in general.
So you're saying to ignore the numbers on the knob, and memorize the amount of clicks you move it instead?
While you are not likely in possession of an M14, go here for free U.S. military TM and FM M14 manuals in .pdf format. Note the need for the provided UN & PW. http://www.biggerhammer.net/manuals/
The Rifle and Marksmanship manual is a bit over 22 meg. You'll want FM 23-8 too. Comes in two 2.5 meg files.
The Rifle and Marksmanship manual is a bit over 22 meg. You'll want FM 23-8 too. Comes in two 2.5 meg files.
Well, that's what I do...I never think about the numbers on the knob, I just click what I know it needs.
But I think you would probably find that if the sights were installed, that the needs and the marks would line up. What was battle zero for an M14, 250 meters/275 yards? There is no mark for 100 because not much dirt time would be spent there. But to get down to 100, just click backwards 3 clicks from the 2.
Of course once you take your sights off you will have to get them all re-set at the range. You can put the knob on in any position when you reassemble them, and offhand I don't know of a way to ensure the marks line up with the elevation.
So I just do mine at 25m which works out to the same as 200m anyway. Once you get it dialed in at 25m, unscrew your elevation knob (while holding the rear peep sight steady!) and move it until you're at the 2 on the knob. Tighten it back up and you should be golden.
click down 3 for 100 if that's where you like to stay zeroed.
Hopefully that's a little more useful!
Kuhnhausen. Battle zero: Once the sight is assembled, run it all the way to the bottom and then click it up 8 clicks. Loosen the screw on the elevation knob and rotate the knob until it lines up with the 100 m marking. Tighten the screw.
That being said, I just installed the Beretta sights and although they are in beautiful condition, loosening the screw didn't allow me to freely rotate the elevation knob. It still wanted to grab the gear and move the sight as I tried to set the battlefield zero. I probably need to take it apart again and lube inside the elevation knob.
Of course there had to be a way...up until that point I looked pretty smart too.
BattleRife
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Realize that the markings are movable and are normally changed as part of the sighting-in process. You need to sight your rifle in at a known distance, then adjust the sight markings to match that distance. Exactly where your sight will bottom out will vary among rifles, but is typically 8-12 clicks below the 100m marking.
I use White Testors model paint to fill in the elevation reference line AND the line at 250 meters on the elevation knob. That way I just match the two up and I'm at my 250 meter zero (obviously aperture has been properly set at that distance). The rest of the numbers pretty much line up for the corresponding ranges.
Below is the best posting (taken sometime ago from another forum) I have seen on zeroing an M14. It also essentially answers your question.
This posting helped my to cut through all the crap on M14 zeroing and make the weapon fast and useful.
Hope it helps some of you as well.
AF
------------
No offense to anyone, but there is a great deal of misuse of the term, "battlesight zero."
Battlesight zero is a completely separate concept from the *distance* that you are actually shooting at when you set it up.
I'll try to shed some light here...
American service rifles have user adjustable sights. (except for the M16A1...) That big knob with the range numbers on it is there for a reason. You turn that knob to engage targets at that range.
ZERO- the sight setting on your weapon that makes the bullets hit point of aim, *when the range knob is set to the correct range.* The purpose of getting a good zero is so that when you are shooting at 200 meters, you set the knob on "2" and your bullets hit point of aim. When shooting at 400 meters, you set the knob on "4" and your bullets hit point of aim, etc.
It is useful to make a note of this setting on your rifle, so that if the knobs were to loosen up and slip, you can count the clicks and set them back where they belong.
BATTLESIGHT ZERO- The setting on the elevation knob that you normally set when carrying the rifle in a bad place. THIS IS NOT a different zero on the rifle. The rifle is already zeroed. This is simply an elevation knob setting that you select in case of a surprise engagement.
We all know that the M14 rifle is always stored with the rear sight bottomed out. This is to help prevent the rear sight from being bumped/damaged in storage. If you turn your rifle in to the armory with the rear sight elevated, the armorer will scold you, bottom out the sight, count the clicks and fine you 25 cents per click.
So, when you prepare to go out to the perimeter or out on patrol, you have to run the sight up to some setting. You could carry it bottomed out, but you would be a dummy to do so... So where do you set it? Well, for the M14 rifle, the US military policy was to set it for 250 meters and carry it that way. THAT is battlesight zero, and that's why there is a big fat line marked on your rear sight knob at 250 as a reminder.
Why? Because that sight setting gives you the maximum flexibility to engage surprise targets without fiddling with the knob. If the squad leader spots bad guys at any range up to 300 meters or so, he can just give the order to engage and you can hammer away without touching the knob, and the trajectory of the bullets will give you "minute of man" hits out to that distance. You just accept the rise and fall of the bullet's trajectory, because it's not enough to miss a torso sized target out to that range.
Now if the squad leader spots bad guys at, say 550 meters away, he knows that's beyond the battlesight zero of the rifles. He will holler something like, "Enemy! Range 550!" So you grab your rear sight elevation knob, dial it up to 550, and engage. Now, you are no longer shooting at battlesight zero, but your rifle IS STILL ZEROED, meaning that because of your previous hard work on the range, when you set the knob to 550 your bullets hit at 550. Zero.
Notice that I haven't said a word yet about AT WHAT RANGE you shoot your rifle to get the initial zero set up. This is because you can shoot your rifle at ANY distance to get your zero. All you have to know is the trajectory of the bullet.
The best way by far to get a good zero on your rifle is to shoot it at actual distance. If you shoot at a range of 300 meters and adjust the elevation knob so that it says "3" and you are hitting point of aim, you have a really good zero on your rifle. Turn the knob down to 250, and now you are set on a battlesight zero of 250.
This takes time and requires a nice big shooting range. The powers that be in the military decided that in order to save training time and money, a procedure to come close to a good zero by shooting on a 1000"/25 meter range should be published. All this does is eliminate walking back and forth all that way, and a 25 meter range can be set up in minutes against any nearby hillside. It's a sloppy shortcut and nothing more.
The 1000"/25 meter range has nothing to do with battlesight zero, it's just a TYPE OF SHOOTING FACILITY used to ADJUST the rifles for a battlesight zero. This shortcut has been used for so long in the military that many people confuse the term "battlesight zero" to automatically mean the 1000"/25 meter range. This is not correct.
So...
1. ZERO your rifle. Loosen the screw and adjust your sight until you hit point of aim with the knob set on the actual distance you are shooting. Tighten the screw. Your rifle is zeroed.
2. SELECT a battlesight zero when you go walking about. Base your battlesight zero selection on your targets. For "minute of man," set the knob to a battlesight zero of 250 and engage out to 300. For "minute of deer," (smaller target with less +/-) set the knob to a battlesight zero of something like 200. This will hit a deer in the vitals out to about 250 meters. (At this point, it's not really a "battlesight zero," it's a "hunting sight zero," but the concept is the same.)
A bit long, but that's because I'm a bit passionate about this subject. Correct use of the sights on a battle rifle IS a big deal.
Below is the best posting (taken sometime ago from another forum) I have seen on zeroing an M14. It also essentially answers your question.
This posting helped my to cut through all the crap on M14 zeroing and make the weapon fast and useful.
Hope it helps some of you as well.
AF
------------
No offense to anyone, but there is a great deal of misuse of the term, "battlesight zero."
Battlesight zero is a completely separate concept from the *distance* that you are actually shooting at when you set it up.
I'll try to shed some light here...
American service rifles have user adjustable sights. (except for the M16A1...) That big knob with the range numbers on it is there for a reason. You turn that knob to engage targets at that range.
ZERO- the sight setting on your weapon that makes the bullets hit point of aim, *when the range knob is set to the correct range.* The purpose of getting a good zero is so that when you are shooting at 200 meters, you set the knob on "2" and your bullets hit point of aim. When shooting at 400 meters, you set the knob on "4" and your bullets hit point of aim, etc.
It is useful to make a note of this setting on your rifle, so that if the knobs were to loosen up and slip, you can count the clicks and set them back where they belong.
BATTLESIGHT ZERO- The setting on the elevation knob that you normally set when carrying the rifle in a bad place. THIS IS NOT a different zero on the rifle. The rifle is already zeroed. This is simply an elevation knob setting that you select in case of a surprise engagement.
We all know that the M14 rifle is always stored with the rear sight bottomed out. This is to help prevent the rear sight from being bumped/damaged in storage. If you turn your rifle in to the armory with the rear sight elevated, the armorer will scold you, bottom out the sight, count the clicks and fine you 25 cents per click.
So, when you prepare to go out to the perimeter or out on patrol, you have to run the sight up to some setting. You could carry it bottomed out, but you would be a dummy to do so... So where do you set it? Well, for the M14 rifle, the US military policy was to set it for 250 meters and carry it that way. THAT is battlesight zero, and that's why there is a big fat line marked on your rear sight knob at 250 as a reminder.
Why? Because that sight setting gives you the maximum flexibility to engage surprise targets without fiddling with the knob. If the squad leader spots bad guys at any range up to 300 meters or so, he can just give the order to engage and you can hammer away without touching the knob, and the trajectory of the bullets will give you "minute of man" hits out to that distance. You just accept the rise and fall of the bullet's trajectory, because it's not enough to miss a torso sized target out to that range.
Now if the squad leader spots bad guys at, say 550 meters away, he knows that's beyond the battlesight zero of the rifles. He will holler something like, "Enemy! Range 550!" So you grab your rear sight elevation knob, dial it up to 550, and engage. Now, you are no longer shooting at battlesight zero, but your rifle IS STILL ZEROED, meaning that because of your previous hard work on the range, when you set the knob to 550 your bullets hit at 550. Zero.
Notice that I haven't said a word yet about AT WHAT RANGE you shoot your rifle to get the initial zero set up. This is because you can shoot your rifle at ANY distance to get your zero. All you have to know is the trajectory of the bullet.
The best way by far to get a good zero on your rifle is to shoot it at actual distance. If you shoot at a range of 300 meters and adjust the elevation knob so that it says "3" and you are hitting point of aim, you have a really good zero on your rifle. Turn the knob down to 250, and now you are set on a battlesight zero of 250.
This takes time and requires a nice big shooting range. The powers that be in the military decided that in order to save training time and money, a procedure to come close to a good zero by shooting on a 1000"/25 meter range should be published. All this does is eliminate walking back and forth all that way, and a 25 meter range can be set up in minutes against any nearby hillside. It's a sloppy shortcut and nothing more.
The 1000"/25 meter range has nothing to do with battlesight zero, it's just a TYPE OF SHOOTING FACILITY used to ADJUST the rifles for a battlesight zero. This shortcut has been used for so long in the military that many people confuse the term "battlesight zero" to automatically mean the 1000"/25 meter range. This is not correct.
So...
1. ZERO your rifle. Loosen the screw and adjust your sight until you hit point of aim with the knob set on the actual distance you are shooting. Tighten the screw. Your rifle is zeroed.
2. SELECT a battlesight zero when you go walking about. Base your battlesight zero selection on your targets. For "minute of man," set the knob to a battlesight zero of 250 and engage out to 300. For "minute of deer," (smaller target with less +/-) set the knob to a battlesight zero of something like 200. This will hit a deer in the vitals out to about 250 meters. (At this point, it's not really a "battlesight zero," it's a "hunting sight zero," but the concept is the same.)
A bit long, but that's because I'm a bit passionate about this subject. Correct use of the sights on a battle rifle IS a big deal.
No, I drip it in with a tooth pick and wipe the excess off with my finger. It turns out just fine. Not messy like you think it would be.
Also do same thing to windage lines on receiver.
AF
damn, good idea. Going to have to do this!
Modelers paint? how about nail polish? the s/o has lots
I used nail polish on my ruger MkIII front sight and it worked just dandy, but it's not an area that I even touch unlike windage/elevation knobs.
Modelers paint? how about nail polish? the s/o has lots
I used nail polish on my ruger MkIII front sight and it worked just dandy, but it's not an area that I even touch unlike windage/elevation knobs.
damn, good idea. Going to have to do this!
Modelers paint? how about nail polish? the s/o has lots
I used nail polish on my ruger MkIII front sight and it worked just dandy, but it's not an area that I even touch unlike windage/elevation knobs.
Tried em both. Model paint seems to be better.
AF
