Unknown Portuguese Mauser made in Berlin.
- Thread starter 7.62xfun
- Start date
Model 1904 Mauser-Vergueiro. Original round was 6.5 X 58 Rimless.
Do not take the bolt apart! It's supposed to be a b*tch to re-assemble. Some collectors joke that you need three hands to get it back together. It's essentially a Model 1898 Mauser with a different Mannlicher-Schonauer bolt.
Its said that it difficult to find these rifles in good condition. Good score, but I don't think you'll be shooting it anytime soon ( unless it came with ammunition )
Do not take the bolt apart! It's supposed to be a b*tch to re-assemble. Some collectors joke that you need three hands to get it back together. It's essentially a Model 1898 Mauser with a different Mannlicher-Schonauer bolt.
Its said that it difficult to find these rifles in good condition. Good score, but I don't think you'll be shooting it anytime soon ( unless it came with ammunition )
This is a Portuguese Mauser-Vergueiro m/1904/39 Rifle in 8x57mm, it was converted from 6.5x58mm and the Bayonet is not original to this rifle, it looks like a 1908 Brazilian Mauser bayonet. You got a good deal on the trade! Hopefully the bore is not rusty like the action.
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
That is a Portuguese M1904/39 Mauser-Vergueiro. Caliber is 8mm Mauser. That example is a bit worn but they are very nice rifles (the one I have is one of my favourite guns). The bayonet there is wrong for the rifle, I think it might be a Brazilian Mauser bayonet but I am not sure. Is it matching numbers (be sure to check the safety as most are different numbered)?Here is a picture of mine with the proper bayonet beside it (photo wasn't taken by me only using it as it is the only one I have readily available).
What's the value of these. I Only want one 8mm and that's a k98. It's not really that worn I just haven't gotten a chance to clean it up yet. Gotta strip it later and check the numbers.i thought 8 mm. But the guy said he couldn't even ram one in it. May be dirty
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
Value about 300-350 (leaning towards the 300 or less mark though, matching numbers will help bring the price up a bit). One guy was trying to sell a all matching one which was still in the cosmoline (I think) with matching bayonet for 350$ and I am not sure if he ever sold it. Personally I love the action itself but to each there own. The issue with these rifles is there is not much demand for them as they are a bit of a odd design used by a not too involved country in WWI or WWII (not a Garand, K98 or even a Mosin).
Disassembly of the bolt is a very difficult task (which is also why the safety's tend to be mismatched as the troops would lose them). Mine I got just over a year ago in the cosmoline with a like new condition bore (I figure it was never shot after being rebarreled until I got my hands on it).
Disassembly of the bolt is a very difficult task (which is also why the safety's tend to be mismatched as the troops would lose them). Mine I got just over a year ago in the cosmoline with a like new condition bore (I figure it was never shot after being rebarreled until I got my hands on it).
The model 1904/39 should have shorter bbl (23.5") as opposed to the longer bbls of the unaltered 1904(29").
One discrepancy that I can see also is that the front sight doesn't have 'ears' ( although they may have been removed).
I'd go with the 8mm theory anyhow; as it's got the extra reinforcing bolt for the 8mm rd. How high (numerically) does the rear sight go?
Eaglelord; does your's have the 6.5 stamped over with a cross?
One discrepancy that I can see also is that the front sight doesn't have 'ears' ( although they may have been removed).
I'd go with the 8mm theory anyhow; as it's got the extra reinforcing bolt for the 8mm rd. How high (numerically) does the rear sight go?
Eaglelord; does your's have the 6.5 stamped over with a cross?
Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
Here is a photo of the side of mine (once again not my photo). No crosses over the 6.5 but a good key to tell if it has been converted as well is the fact the 'gas vent' has been drilled into the side of the receiver (on mine it was still covered in cosmoline at this point but you can see where it is). The changes from the 1904 to the 1904/39 were shorter barrel (brand new 8mm Mauser barrel), shortened stock, sight ramp partially ground to accommodate the new round, front sight ears added (I can see the hole drilled for the screw which would have held the front sight ears in place in the one above someone likely removed it at some point in time), and the gas vent drilled into the side of the receiver. I also am going to edit my estimated value to be 250-300$ for the rifle as since that part is missing it will lower the value.
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Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
The bayonet appears to be a Brazilian 1908 bayonet. Value I would put at about 50$ if I was selling but I don't really know anything about those bayonets.
First off, it isn't a 98 clone.
Secondly, it has the small cut out at the top of the receiver ring to accept the Spitzer type bullets of the 8x57. The bayo in the pic is a 1908 Brazilian and is worth more than the 410 by itself.
This isn't the first 1904/39 I've seen without front sight protectors.
If you're lucky, it still has its original trigger guard/ floor plate. Many of them were stripped off for sporter builds on 98 actions They fit perfectly and have latched, swinging floor plates.
As for the bolt, they are very easy to take apart and have to be assembled properly. Rumor has it the Portuguese troops weren't allowed to disassemble the bolts during cleaning as they have to be properly indexed when reassembled. Google the bolt by name and you will find easy to follow instructions on reassembly.
The two I have are both slightly different from each other. I think it all depended on what parts were available when they were converted to 8x57.
One has the stepped profile barrel similar to that on a K98 and the other has a slimmer straight profile barrel. Both appear to be correct.
As far as value goes. Condition is everything. I recently sold one in excellent condition for $$450. Your rifle isn't in excellent condition.
As far as you only wanting a 98 that is your personal preference.
IMHO, the rifle you have is every bit as good. It is smoother operating than a 98 and if the bore is in excellent condition as most of these seem to be, it is every bit as accurate and even though it is sacrilege to say so, maybe even more accurate than a 98. The sighting system is almost identical and the sight protectors actually work well as low light sights at short range in stressful conditions.
One thing I really do not understand, is why these rifles don't get more respect than they do. They are covered in history. They were issued in Portugal as well as every corner of their empire. A very easily carried and brought into action rifle as well as being extremely reliable.
Some sneer at the split bridge. Don't ask me why because I certainly don't know the answer. For the rifle's intended purpose the split bridge poses no issues for the troops using it.
It's a good rifle that is steeped in history all over the world. Use it and enjoy it. There are no flies on its design or effectiveness. I have shot several white tails with mine from 20-200 yards.
Secondly, it has the small cut out at the top of the receiver ring to accept the Spitzer type bullets of the 8x57. The bayo in the pic is a 1908 Brazilian and is worth more than the 410 by itself.
This isn't the first 1904/39 I've seen without front sight protectors.
If you're lucky, it still has its original trigger guard/ floor plate. Many of them were stripped off for sporter builds on 98 actions They fit perfectly and have latched, swinging floor plates.
As for the bolt, they are very easy to take apart and have to be assembled properly. Rumor has it the Portuguese troops weren't allowed to disassemble the bolts during cleaning as they have to be properly indexed when reassembled. Google the bolt by name and you will find easy to follow instructions on reassembly.
The two I have are both slightly different from each other. I think it all depended on what parts were available when they were converted to 8x57.
One has the stepped profile barrel similar to that on a K98 and the other has a slimmer straight profile barrel. Both appear to be correct.
As far as value goes. Condition is everything. I recently sold one in excellent condition for $$450. Your rifle isn't in excellent condition.
As far as you only wanting a 98 that is your personal preference.
IMHO, the rifle you have is every bit as good. It is smoother operating than a 98 and if the bore is in excellent condition as most of these seem to be, it is every bit as accurate and even though it is sacrilege to say so, maybe even more accurate than a 98. The sighting system is almost identical and the sight protectors actually work well as low light sights at short range in stressful conditions.
One thing I really do not understand, is why these rifles don't get more respect than they do. They are covered in history. They were issued in Portugal as well as every corner of their empire. A very easily carried and brought into action rifle as well as being extremely reliable.
Some sneer at the split bridge. Don't ask me why because I certainly don't know the answer. For the rifle's intended purpose the split bridge poses no issues for the troops using it.
It's a good rifle that is steeped in history all over the world. Use it and enjoy it. There are no flies on its design or effectiveness. I have shot several white tails with mine from 20-200 yards.
Trigger plate matches the bolt stock receiver and everything else that i can find. Just cleaned the cosmolean out of it .going to clean oil and reassemble it . Its in better shape then the pictures tell. I dont know how long sence its been cleaned but the worst damage is the barrel has old pitts on the outside.i want a k98 because i have a garand a smle and two arisakas and a mosin sniper but no k98.
It is very nice i must admit, i just finished cleaning and reassembling it. The bolt wasnt that hard to get back together. I might keep it but im a bit worryed he said he couldn't get the rifle to accept 8mm rounds.. had a good day for trading, i was given the .410 i traded for it for free. And i traded another .410 i traded three boxes of surplus 7.62x25 for that cooey also in the first few pictures.
If it is chambered in 8x57 it should work. If you reload, or know someone that does, make up a dummy round and try it out.
From your OP, the barrel on that rifle looks to be a bit longer than usual for a converted Vergeuiro. The front band isn't right either. Are you sure it isn't still in its original chambering????
If it is 8mm, a 6.5 bullet will slip right in. If either of your Arisakas are type 38s, the bullet from one of those will be close enough to tell if it's 8mm or not. Those missing sight ears are telling us something here. The original barrels didn't have them
Also, here is what an original 1904 long rifle looks like in 6.5:
Yours looks shorter so I am leaning towards refurbishment to match up with the Kar98ks that were being purchased in the late 30s. I am also not a fan of dropping rounds in and seeing if the bolt will close as there could be other issues with the chamber or bolt that you wouldn't see. Unless you are certain of the calibre, I recommend a trip to a qualified gunsmith who can determine the calibre and anything else out of the ordinary.
Your bayonet is also incorrect and is from a 1908 Brazilian rifle. It is in rough shape by the looks of it so my guess would be $50-75 roughly for value.
Edit: Did anyone else notice the "hole" that is just forward of the DWM address stamp on the OP's rifle ? Could she be a dewatt ?
This doesn't look normal from other 1904s I have seen but I have never personally owned an example so I can't say for sure.
Yours looks shorter so I am leaning towards refurbishment to match up with the Kar98ks that were being purchased in the late 30s. I am also not a fan of dropping rounds in and seeing if the bolt will close as there could be other issues with the chamber or bolt that you wouldn't see. Unless you are certain of the calibre, I recommend a trip to a qualified gunsmith who can determine the calibre and anything else out of the ordinary.
Your bayonet is also incorrect and is from a 1908 Brazilian rifle. It is in rough shape by the looks of it so my guess would be $50-75 roughly for value.
Edit: Did anyone else notice the "hole" that is just forward of the DWM address stamp on the OP's rifle ? Could she be a dewatt ?
This doesn't look normal from other 1904s I have seen but I have never personally owned an example so I can't say for sure.
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Eaglelord17
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- Sault Ste. Marie
The hole is a gas vent (I don't know if it would have worked or not) they drilled when they were converted to 8mm Mauser. So far everything provided adds up to a 1904/39 as it has all the ticks in the box for the conversion, its just missing the front sight hood.
- Location
- East of Home, West of the Rest
The hole is normal for the 1904/39. As mentioned, a vent hole.
I got mine for $350 and as has also been mentioned, the action is incredibly smooth. I think these are a super deal given the history of the rifles and the quality.
I got mine for $350 and as has also been mentioned, the action is incredibly smooth. I think these are a super deal given the history of the rifles and the quality.
