** UPDATE** Fronteir .308 150gr CP bullets

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Griffoneur

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I loaded up 150 rounds of .308 Winchester with 150gr Fronteir copper plated bullets.

46gr of IMR4350 with an overall maximum length of 2.700" as per Lee manual.

Just got my M14-S and the round will not seat in the chamber.
So I reseated bit by bit till it seated fully in the chamber.
The cartridge now has an overall length of 2.480" but I am worried about increased internal pressures and the possibility of a KABOOM.

Has anyone else reloaded these bullets? They are rather long with a flat nose and not tapered to a point like conventional bullets.

Let me know if OK to shoot or if I have to pull all those frickin bullets! :mad:

Thanks.
 
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I am NOT going to be the responsible party if you blow up your gun or yourself, and I may be wildly off base here.

That said - I'm not aware that you can fit enough 4350 in a 308 Winchester case to create a pressure problem (at least not with a 150 grain bullet). If it was a bolt gun, I'd go shoot one in a heartbeat. I'd be a bit more nervous in a M14 though...
 
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cheap bullets they are, you are better off throwing them at deer as this is the most accurate way, shooting them is no good as they all weigh different and no 2 shots will hit the same spot.
 
A pistol cartridge is much more sensitive to OAL than a rifle cartridge. Setting a pistol bullet reduces the PERCENTAGE of volume much more than a rifle cartridge.

I plugged your figures into Quickload but used a Hornady 150 RN (no data for Frontier) and it spit out a figure of 45,000 psi. Up from 37,500 psi at 2.700" OAL.

USE AT YOUR OWN RISK........ <= standard CYA statement
 
mg34 said:
cheap bullets they are, you are better off throwing them at deer as this is the most accurate way, shooting them is no good as they all weigh different and no 2 shots will hit the same spot.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've had the same problem with the various Frontier bullets I've tried. Great "bang bang" fodder, but not much for accuracy (approx 3 inch at 100 meters is as good as I've ever got any of them, and that took work).
 
IMR4350 is a low pressure powder, so the extra seating depth should not be an issue.

At 2.70'' the pressure is 36,600CUP the highest load I saw for .308 was 51,000CUP. So seating at 2.480'' should not raise the pressure past 51,000CUP (educated guess).

I will try shooting a couple and look bulging or flattened primers.
 
That bullet is pretty long at the base. I'm amazed you were able to get the thing in without deforming the brass. With H4895 I can't get more than 48gr in a commercial case and there won't be enough room for that bullet.

After much testing and several disappointing range trips and lots of powder and primers gone to waste, I did finally get a good load with H4895 and using Frontier's m1 Carbine 30cal 110gr bullet. Still fine tuning it for the best group/load I can get with the M14 but at least they flys straight and hit the black now.
 
Good news!

I took apart one on the frontier rounds and reloaded with a Hornady 150gr SST. The SST has a crimp groove which takes the guesswork out of seating depth.

As it turns out, the SST actually sits DEEPER in the case than the Frontier which I had seated at 2.480" OAL. Therefore there is NO PRESSURE ISSUE.

I guess you could compare the Fronteir bullet as if SWC to a RN pistol bullet. The bullet has a flatter nose but there is also a bit more bullet surface that contacts the barrel as compared to a SST or boat-tail bullet.

So now I can go shoot my Fronteir bullets off witout blowing off my face or splitting my barrel apart!

Will let you know how they shoot with iron sights and ####ty eyesight! LOL
 
Griff,

Bullet weight and seating depth are not the only things that lead to pressure issues. You also need to consider the bearing surface of the bullet. How much of the bullet actually contacts the rifling and the hardness of the jacket material has as much or more bearing (pun intended) on pressure as does seating depth (up to a certain point)...


blake
 
Awesome rifle!

Out of the box Norinco M14-S (Stripped, cleaned in dishwasher, reassembled)
I DID NOT TOUCH THE SIGHTS..!

46gr IMR4350
150gr Fronteir copper plated flat nosed funky bullet
Seated to 2.460" with slight crimp

25yds iron sights 10 shot group:
25yds.jpg


50yds iron sights 15 shot group:
50yds.jpg


The two shots in the 6 ring was my fault... I "breathed" as I squeezed off the shot.

Rifle operated flawlessly, recoil is very tame. Bullets fed without problem. This rifle is a "keeper". Didn't shoot at 100 yds cause I can't see squat passed 50 yds without a scope.
 
hoochie said:
omg. thats a 50yard target?
i wont buy those bullets ever.
Click to expand...

That's a fifty yard target with iron sights and poor eyesight.

I'd want to see what some groups looked like with both decent load development, and scope sights, before I would write off these bullets. They are not exactly sold as match ammo, either.

Cheers
Trev
 
Can you say... OVER RE-ACTION???

hoochie said:
omg. thats a 50yard target?
i wont buy those bullets ever.
Click to expand...

Nothing wrong with Frontier bullets as long as you realize they are not match bullets. Enjoy the rifle & enjoy your reloading experience ( I find it a soothing pastime in a sometime frustrating way if that makes any sense).

Have fun and be safe.

Regards,
 
Griffoneur, that looks pretty decent.

Your 25-yard group is much smaller than your 50-yard group, way less than half the size. This is probably not the rifle and ammo, but probably your sight picture. You might find that if you used a target with a larger aiming black, that your sight picture would improve, and that you would be able to get better groups.

Your 25-yard target shows that you, your eyes, your sights, your rifle and your ammo are capable of putting ten out of ten shots into about 3/4" at 25 yards. I would expect that you would therefore be able to shoot a group about four times as large as that at 100 yards (four times the distance), which would be 3", if you have everything else working properly (in particular, an aiming black large enough to give you a good 100y sight picture).

3" for ten shots at 100 yards is, in my opinion, pretty darn good. I don't seem to be able to do any better than 5" groups at 100y using my M1 Garand, even using true match ammunition.

Why is it that you decided to use IMR4350? That's a pretty slow powder to use for a .308. While safe, you're not going to be able to get full velocity (which you probably don't want to get with these relatively weak copper-plated bullets). Also, your velocities will probably be fairly erratic from shot to shot (perhaps as much as 200-300fps difference), though this probably won't really matter at short range (300y and less).

If you have quicker rifle powders on hand (e.g. H335, H322, 3031, 4895, 4198 etc), you might want to try a load with one of those powders that gives you 2400-2500ish fps (something like a typical listed starting load, or perhaps a few grain less - something that will give you 35,000-40,000 CUP).

Also, I am curious, how much did those bullets cost?


Cheers,
 
The bullets cost I believe... $23 for box of 150

The 50 yards group is about as far as I can see without a scope. And 50 yards is pushing my eyes to the limit. Any serious long range shooting I do with a scope.

I don't want to scope the M-14. A proper mount is $200+ and to me is totally useless as a hunting rifle as it is just too damn heavy to hump around.

The Fronteir bullets are not match quality, not by a long shot. But for "plinking" they work fine. If you want to go and shoot some dirt pigs, these will do the job nicely.
 
Griff, to shoot farther just increase the size of the aiming black, that way your sight picture remains unchanged. When shooting from a rested position, try a center hold rather than a 6 o'clock hold. With a center hold, if the light changes, you are not constantly trying to see if the top of the post is against the bottom of the black. Regardless of range, with a center hold the center black should be equal to the width of your front post. This simplifies your sight picture tremendously. Note that you are not having any difficulty with the horizontal spread, an adjustment of 1 minute left and your group would split the center line nicely, but you appear to be fighting with the vertical.

Conversely, if shooting off hand, try a sub-6 hold, allowing a space about half way between the bottom of the target and the bottom of the black as the distance from the top of your post to the bottom of the black. Once that sight picture is required all you have to do is increase pressure on the trigger when the center of the post is in line with the center of the black, without concern for correcting the elevation. It sounds illogical, but it works.

Edited to add . . .
I have little experience with gas guns, but my understanding is that slow burning powders like 4350 can result in operating rod damage, even though the perceived pressure is low. Although your groups look good, I would be inclined to switch to 4895, 4064, or 748.
 
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