US Army removes HK416 rifles from service with Asymmetric Warfare Group

capp325

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Looks like more political BS to me:


Army takes HK416s from special unit

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2008/03/Army_no416s_031008w/

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Wednesday Mar 12, 2008 14:37:30 EDT

The Army has stripped the Asymmetric Warfare Group of its weapon of choice — the Heckler & Koch 416 — saying that its mission requires the unique outfit to carry the standard issue M4 carbine.

The decision reverses a policy that allowed the AWG to buy 416s instead of carrying M4s when it was established three years ago to help senior Army leaders find new tactics and technologies to make soldiers more lethal in combat.

Members of the AWG have declined to comment on the issue, but sources in the community told Army Times that the unit fought to keep its several hundred 416s, arguing that they outperform the Army’s M4 and require far less maintenance.

In a response to a March 6 Army Times query, the Army acknowledged initial approval of the AWG’s move to the 416.

“The AWG is empowered to procure, on a limited basis, select non-standard equipment to assist in identifying capability gaps and advise on the development of future requirements. To this end, the Asymmetric Warfare Group did purchase H&K 416 rifles,” said Army spokesman Lt. Col. Martin Downie.

“The AWG also advises units on training, tactics and procedures. In this capacity, the use of the standard issue M4 is required. In support of this mission set, the decision was made to transition to the M4 and the AWG is now turning in its H&K rifles.”

This is the latest round of controversy surrounding the M4 since late November, when the weapon finished last in an Army reliability test against several other carbines.

The M4 suffered more stoppages than the combined number of jams by the three other competitors — the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle (SCAR) and the H&K 416.

Army weapons officials agreed to perform the dust test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army Special Forces units to ditch the M4 in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Since then, Coburn has questioned the Army’s plans to spend more than $300 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009 rather than considering newer and possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.

Army officials have downplayed the test results, maintaining that soldiers using the M4 in combat praised the weapon in a recent study by the Center for Naval Analysis.

But this isn’t the first time the M4’s performance has come under fire.

U.S. Special Operations Command decided nearly four years ago that it wanted a better weapon than the M4. After a competition, it awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new SCAR to replace all of the command’s M4s.

But even prior to USSOCOM’s decision, the Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that its piston operating system reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts.

The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Weapon experts say the M4’s system of blowing gas directly into the receiver of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication and causes excessive wear on parts.

The AWG followed Delta’s example when it stood up in March 2005 to advise the Army’s senior leadership on how to identify and counter emerging threats on the battlefield. With Army approval, the unit bought several hundred 416s for its members to carry when they deployed to Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots.

Many senior sergeants in the AWG were angered that soldiers in the unit had to turn in their 416s, a process that began last fall, said a U.S. Military officer with knowledge the special operations and AWG communities.

“They were outraged,” he told Army Times. “It’s a reduction in capability. It’s a waste of money that was already spent, and it makes the job more difficult since [the M4] is much more maintenance-intensive.”
 
Sounds like a pissing match that someone high up won, having the 416's around keeps the issue about the M4 vs the 416 alive, so they take them away. Politics you got to love it...
 
Lot of Army politics as well as outside influence.

AWG is Big Army - and even though it is the SecArm's personal Delta - it does answer to the Army chain...
 
SecArm's personal Delta? I guess with all the money being hurled into defense spending these days, there's more room for carving out personal kingdoms...but I'm not sure I truly understand the logic behind more than one "Delta" in the US Army.

Then again, I'm on the outside, looking in.

If the Wiki on AWG is accurate, it looks like it's "big army's" response to Special Forces...their way of saying that they don't need to eat snakes ot be high speed and low drag.
 
I'm fairly certain my info on AWG is correct ;)

They have two main functions -- training units for Asymetrical Warfare (small unit tactics and skills) - Actionable Intelligence cells imbedded into untis for deployment to do DA's for HVT's.

Understanding USSOC and specifically the Tier1 assets of SFOD-D and DEVGRP will let you understand that nothing with them happens really fast. AWG stood up to give the Army a skilled quick responce to issues that pop up.

Despite what you may see on "The Unit" POTUS/NCA control the implementation of those assets -- if Achmed the bomb maker pops up from a NSA elint hit, the time to spool them up and get a Go is time that Achmed is gone. AWG cell can get spooled up and have the hit done in minutes after the Ft Meade feed is given
 
I wasn't trying to cast any doubt on your understanding of the situation. I know enough to know what I don't know...if you know what I mean. :confused:

I've also learned to respect the knowledge gathered by the eyes attached to the boots on the ground.

The few sentences in your reply just gave me three times the clarity that the Wiki did :)

AWG's mission and raison d'etre is now far clearer to me. Thanks!
 
Guys guys guys... you're looking at this the wrong way.

We should be saying "where and how do we get their returns" lol

But sersiously sounds like a lot of political BS to me since it was proven that the 416s were superior to the M4 system. What else is there to talk about?

I must agree about the Payroll thing too

Luke
 
It is not a new thing for troops to be used for the profit making of others.

It saddens me to see repeats WITHIN my own lifetime, however, especially when it involves volunteers being sent to the field with sub-standard equipment.

Neal
 
It is not a new thing for troops to be used for the profit making of others.

It saddens me to see repeats WITHIN my own lifetime, however, especially when it involves volunteers being sent to the field with sub-standard equipment.

Neal

Sub-standard?

The HK 416 is a dream by all accounts and most here would love to own and/or use one, there is no question about that.

That however does not make the M4 sub-standard. You can arguebly say the HK416 is better.
 
On the other hand, if I run the army, what kind of message are you sending down to the troops - right, the highspeed boys got the HK416 becasue they are "better" but the rest of you maggots get "M4s".

What is the message that you are sending to everyone?

I don't dispute the 416 is a more reliable system, but it is bad juju from a management standpoint - a way to shake the confidence of your line workers and create differentiation that is not needed. Unfortunately, everyone and his dogs know about the 416 and the special highspeed boys. In a way, it is self-inflicting.

It sucks for those who use the 416, but I am afraid the army leadership makes the correct decision in this case - maybe too late
 
Frankly I disagree.

The Hk416 had been adopted - crying over spilt milk is dumb. It had been paid for and was in use (and still is - as the withdrawl is not complete). AWG gets different kit already - in radios, NV, pistols etc.
The fact remains their mission is different from most Big Army units -- and their capabilities are boosted buy this kit.

The same reasons why LI/SOC units get things that a Service Battalion won't

And SOF units different from conventional scales of issue.
 
X2

Having served 20 years with Support units domestically and deployed (ie Service Battalions and versions thereof), there is no need to issue the entire Army "ninja gear".

By this I mean that support units, while still threatened (especially in today's non-linear theatres), need weapons that are common to all arms for self defence. While having Surefires, ACOGs, EOtechs and assorted lasers and god-vision devices is a huge benifit to Combat arms units who need these to actively patrol and engage bad guys, for the supporting units these add ons tend to get neglected and frankly, in the way when performing regular duties (load/ unload trucks, driving, cooking, refuelling, repairing vehicles, and all the other "boring/ unsexy" jobs that need to be done.)

Also consider, do you want your support types to spend more time training on an entire suite of high-end addons for these weapons, or do you want them to concentrate on the trade they support the pointy-end with? I'm not trying to say us "soft" trades shouldn't be competant in our basic skill at arms, but we shouldn't neglect our technical (bread and butter) training in preference for advanced Infantry tactics. That is not our role.

Just my $0.02 as a "grey man" in the shadows away from the spotlight.

Where is that damn spellcheck button...;)
 
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