US&S M1911A1 FINISH question for the experts

[Tom E Gun]

I have previously posts a few pictures of my US&S pistol with a polished blued finish. It was my understanding that all US&S pistols had a Du-Lite blued finish over a light sandblasting leading to the conclusion that my pistol has been refinished at some time in the past. However during my online research I came across this site:

http://www.model1911a1.com/

The owner of this site owns an extensive and very impressive collection of 1911A1 pistols. One in particular caught my eye. Here is his description of one of his US&S pistols, followed by a picture:

"This example has a Du-lite blued finish over a polished surface, the other finish variation found in this series of pistols. Also has the characteristic grind marks on the right side of the receiver. This pistol was presented to Byron Light, an employee and member of the pistol integration committee representing U. S. & S."

Here is mine for comparison:

Can anyone confirm how common this polished finish was? Is there any possibility that my pistol could have an original finish? If so, how could I confirm this?

Thanks

 

[Steve1987]

Hi Mark,

The du-lite over polished surface was only applied to a very small number of EXP. factory presentation pistols and was never applied to any US&S M1911A1's shipped for military service. The pistol on model1911a1.com is one of approx. 100 EXP marked presentation pistols and not U.S. property marked. "This pistol was presented to Byron Light, an employee and member of the pistol integration committee representing U. S. & S.". You will notice all standard U.S. property marked US&S M1911A1's on model1911a1.com have the original correct du-lite over sandblasting.

Your pistol is U.S. property marked and originally had the du-lite over a sandblasted finish and I'm sorry to say the current bluing has zero chance of being factory original. It appears when the gun was buffed and re-blued someone also decided to polish the barrel hood as well. These sort of things were typically done in the early post war years to give the pistols a more commercial appearance before they were very collectible in original finish and condition.

Original US&S du-lite bluing over sandblasting:

In recent years Vulcan and other restoration places in Canada have attempted to replicate the original US&S finish on non-collectible examples, and it's really buyer beware. Make sure to study detailed photos of original finish guns before going down the road of buying an original.

Cheers,
-Steve

 

[sunray]

Whoever did that slide ruined it. Edges are rounded and the US&S stamp is nearly gone.

 

[Tom E Gun]

Thanks For the detailed response Steve. Your answer does not surprise me at all, but I thought if there were some original polished guns, I should at least make sure that mine was not one of them.

I do have a question about this statement: "It appears when the gun was buffed and re-blued someone also decided to polish the barrel hood as well.".....which part are you referring to?

"In recent years Vulcan and other restoration places in Canada have attempted to replicate the original US&S finish on non-collectible examples, and it's really buyer beware. Make sure to study detailed photos of original finish guns before going down the road of buying an original." Good advice, I am sure. I have noticed several 1911's on Gun Broker recently that appear fishy even to an inexperienced collector such as myself. Here is an example of an Ithaca that is currently on GB:

I recently watched several YouTube videos of Vulcan refinishing pistols, which led me to do more on-line research which led to the website I mentioned in the first post. I am still convinced that I would rather leave my US&S in its current reblued state rather than refinishing. However I admit that I am interested in a Singer clone from Vulcan, since that is a very easy finish to replicate, and I have no hope of ever acquiring an original.

 

[Coyote Ugly]

Sure, it's beautiful restoration work and craftsmanship - but that's about where you draw the line.

Now here's the scary thing as it affects everyone who collects rifles or pistols.

It's not the collectable that it was anymore once the filing, welding, laser engraving, stamping and reblueing process starts, or AKA the humping process.
You know somewhere, someday, someone will pawn it off as original, or try to.
Humping, It's been going on for years. K98's, Garands, Lugers,.....

There was a US&S "Restored, Reblued, Ya OK Humped" on the EE about a year or so ago for $4500-$5500. Maybe it started life as a $299 Norinco 1911A1? Who knows! Just like those $2200 Garands people are paying for that are $600 Garands with a Park Job and a Boyds Stock.

Cloned into a US&S from nothing

[youtube]LQS6oovFXcw[/youtube]

Restored US&S

[youtube]NF2mwAcq73g[/youtube]

 

[sail32]

Pages 12 and 13 show a number of manufacture's 1911s in what looks like their original finish.
The site also shows a number of .45 cartridges and blanks.

http://www.sodcity.com/gallery2/vie...ame=US-rifles,-Ammunition-Accessories&page=12

http://www.sodcity.com/gallery2/vie...ame=US-rifles,-Ammunition-Accessories&page=13

 

[Tom E Gun]

Thanks everyone for your input. Speaking of refinished pistols....there is a very interesting one on Gun Broker right now. It is a Remington Rand with a refinished Singer slide. I would make an exception to my "no more refinished pistols" rule for this one, unfortunately it is sure to sell well beyond my price range:

Auction # 402397368

 

[Steve1987]

Thanks For the detailed response Steve. Your answer does not surprise me at all, but I thought if there were some original polished guns, I should at least make sure that mine was not one of them.

I do have a question about this statement: "It appears when the gun was buffed and re-blued someone also decided to polish the barrel hood as well.".....which part are you referring to?

Hi Mark,

I'm referring to the barrel hood visible threw the ejection port. On military M1911A1's the barrels were always fully blued from the factory. Commercial 1911's however had polished hoods from the factory, and it's not uncommon for someone to have polished the hood on an M1911A1 to make it look more like a commercial gun. It appears whoever blued your US&S decided to polish the barrel hood, or possibly the entire barrel as well.

"In recent years Vulcan and other restoration places in Canada have attempted to replicate the original US&S finish on non-collectible examples, and it's really buyer beware. Make sure to study detailed photos of original finish guns before going down the road of buying an original." Good advice, I am sure. I have noticed several 1911's on Gun Broker recently that appear fishy even to an inexperienced collector such as myself. Here is an example of an Ithaca that is currently on GB:

That's one ugly fake on gunbroker! Not even close...

I recently watched several YouTube videos of Vulcan refinishing pistols, which led me to do more on-line research which led to the website I mentioned in the first post. I am still convinced that I would rather leave my US&S in its current reblued state rather than refinishing. However I admit that I am interested in a Singer clone from Vulcan, since that is a very easy finish to replicate, and I have no hope of ever acquiring an original.

I suppose it depends what purpose you want it. I only collect original historical firearms so a 1911 with faker Singer engraving by Vulcan or anyone else really isn't worth anything to me. Maybe for those who dress up with reproduction uniforms and play re-enactor this sort of creation might have a place

While the refinished/rebuilt or 'humped up' as Coyote Ugly puts it guns are occasionally selling for big money in Canada, these would only be $600-$700 'shooter grade' examples in the United States if sold as honest reblues/restorations. Only here on CGN and in the somewhat uneducated milsurp market will refinished/rebuilt guns bring more than originals, but I think this is starting to change. Typically when someone restores a firearm they will never recover the costs when they go to sell.

-Steve