USGI Stock woes
- Thread starter Gard
- Start date
The Wizard
CGN Regular
- Location
- Colorado Springs, Colorado USA
Your safety sear is not engaging. And why is the safety sear not engaging? well I will tell you. It is caused by the thickness of the stock. The distance between the receiver and the trigger group is a tad too much. CAREFULLY remove material (wood) from the areas that contact the underside of the reciever and trigger group checking all the time for the safety sear to engage and the proper "squeeze" of the stock between the receiver and trigger group.
The Wizard
CGN Regular
- Location
- Colorado Springs, Colorado USA
That is one area that might be a problem. But forward of that area where the "fingers" of the trigger housing touch the stock is a more likely area. As are the the areas where the receiver touchs the stock.
YEP ...
what the Wiz said.
but when scraping away material,
GO SLOW,
otherwise if you get too deep,
the mags may no longer lock in to the mag catch properly.
[;{(
It is wise to ALWAYS do a hammer safety check after swapping stocks, painting stocks, or even taking the action out of the stock for cleaning.
just went through this myself last week with a swapped in wood Norc stock
and also with one of my USGI Fiberglass stocks, which won't work properly with my new bolt [ bolt diameter at the rear can vary and can effect how far the hammer gets pushed down, and whether or not the hammer goes in deep enough to catch the hooks ].
I am currently waiting on a NEW Garand hammer and trigger,
which is another more expensive, more complicated way to solve the same problem.
In my case, my personal NORC came with a badly machined sear. I stoned it into correct engagement, but since the sear metal is hard ONLY on the thin surface, I do NOT trust that sear for long term use. Replacement of the trigger/sear with a NEW USGI Garand or M14 parts, is a very good starting point for ANY ONE WHO IS HAVING TRIGGER ISSUES.
The Norc hammers are occasionally bad, but it is the out of spec NORC trigger/sear that is usually the culprit.
PS: In my M14 seminars, I do NOT teach M14 TRIGGER JOB AS A VIABLE PROJECT for the Do it yourselfers. IMHO, any one who attempts to do a proper M 14 trigger job using the soft, usually out of spec NORC parts,
is p!ssi'n in the wind ...
unless they are just doin' it for practice,
before they start in on the expensive, hard to find proper US GI parts.
OR unless,
after stoning for proper ENGAGEMENT AND GEOMETRY,
they use Electroless nickle or something similar to plate and re-Harden the surface of the pieces . That way the trigger job should last a lot longer that with the soft, often out of spec NORC parts.
Free opinions from the internet are often worth much less than you pay for them,
AND,
YPMMV
[;{)
LAZ 1
what the Wiz said.
but when scraping away material,
GO SLOW,
otherwise if you get too deep,
the mags may no longer lock in to the mag catch properly.
[;{(
It is wise to ALWAYS do a hammer safety check after swapping stocks, painting stocks, or even taking the action out of the stock for cleaning.
just went through this myself last week with a swapped in wood Norc stock
and also with one of my USGI Fiberglass stocks, which won't work properly with my new bolt [ bolt diameter at the rear can vary and can effect how far the hammer gets pushed down, and whether or not the hammer goes in deep enough to catch the hooks ].
I am currently waiting on a NEW Garand hammer and trigger,
which is another more expensive, more complicated way to solve the same problem.
In my case, my personal NORC came with a badly machined sear. I stoned it into correct engagement, but since the sear metal is hard ONLY on the thin surface, I do NOT trust that sear for long term use. Replacement of the trigger/sear with a NEW USGI Garand or M14 parts, is a very good starting point for ANY ONE WHO IS HAVING TRIGGER ISSUES.
The Norc hammers are occasionally bad, but it is the out of spec NORC trigger/sear that is usually the culprit.
PS: In my M14 seminars, I do NOT teach M14 TRIGGER JOB AS A VIABLE PROJECT for the Do it yourselfers. IMHO, any one who attempts to do a proper M 14 trigger job using the soft, usually out of spec NORC parts,
is p!ssi'n in the wind ...
unless they are just doin' it for practice,
before they start in on the expensive, hard to find proper US GI parts.
OR unless,
after stoning for proper ENGAGEMENT AND GEOMETRY,
they use Electroless nickle or something similar to plate and re-Harden the surface of the pieces . That way the trigger job should last a lot longer that with the soft, often out of spec NORC parts.
Free opinions from the internet are often worth much less than you pay for them,
AND,
YPMMV
[;{)
LAZ 1
Well, I took a little material off in the suggested areas and I think I've met success. Thanks to the auto selector cut-out in the stock I can clearly see the safety sear engage as I cycle the bolt now. A range visit is necessary to confirm but I think I'm good to go. Thanks guys.
Read this sticky in the Battle Rifle Forum:
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91174
Covers the problem and what to do...
Cheers
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=91174
Covers the problem and what to do...
Cheers
Thats odd , as the other weekend i decided to try and clean up my norc trigger because it was still gritty and rough after 500 rounds . so used a honing stone and a small file with a micrometer to slowly take off the sharp edges . The trigger parts were HARD AS #### to take even the slightest material off .
Does this happen with All usgi stocks ? as ive been looking to get a decent wood stock for quite sometime now .
Does this happen with All usgi stocks ? as ive been looking to get a decent wood stock for quite sometime now .
when you change out components, bits or the stock...you must do a test after assembly to make sure it is working properly. See the sticky. Sometimes no problems...every once in a while, you have some problems....do the test after assembly to make sure your rifle is safe to use....
I don't know about other self proclaimed m14 "riflesmiths" but i have been succesfully performing civillian match trigger jobs to bone stock norinco and poly trigger groups for about a year now. It was only after much hesitation that i began accepting trigger jobs as I used to also buy into the "chinese parts are soft" idea..... not ay more 
Yes, some have dimension issues and require replacement parts but the sheer volume of the chinese parts going across my bench, I am not buying into the "soft" chinese trigger parts anymore. The odd one for sure has issues, but for the most part, and especially on the newer specimens, soft metal sears and hammers are a thing of the past. incorrect sear dimension rears it's ugly head here and there in that the left hand side sear is not cut 90 degres to the trigger. the critical surface for hardness is the underside of the sear so these angles can be corrected to a degree as the adjustment is done on the upper sear angle..... a non critical surface for maintaining specific hardness qualities....... to a point.... there are of course limits here.
BUT, the growing number of extremely happy clients who's BONE STOCK trigger groups have had my trigger job procedure applied..... have been providing me with a growing list of exceptional feedback...... and none have come back to me complaining of problems.
I average about 5 civillian match trigger jobs a week.
If you want it done right, the first time, and aren't so gullible to fall for the the "you must replace with garand or G.I. parts" mantra, shoot me an email.
my civillian match, 5 lbs 2 stage trigger jobs are only 75.00 plus shipping, and I personally guarantee every single one I do
as for stocks and fitting..... it's in the stickies on how to relieve the stock. My advice is to gently remove material from the rear bearing pad area first, before messing with the stock forward trigger pads. VERY rarely do we want to alter the stocks receiver bearing surfaces on the top.....
there is a specific measurement for the distance from the stocks rear heel bearing point at top rear of stock, to the rear trigger bearing pads.
In my shop, this dimension is checked prior to any alteration of stock or receiver/trigger bearing points.
so what does a guy do when this dimension is checked and it is within tolerance, and the receiver is firmly and fully seated into the stock...... yet the trigger function is still a fail? We DO NOT want to reduce these dimensions under tolerance, mag fit issues and other problems can arise.
the correct procedure is to remove material from the actual trigger group bearing points.... of the trigger housing. This is tricky and not for the inexperienced. Incidentally, 9 of the 13 sage builds i've put together since they landed in canada several months ago, the solution was to correct the bearing points of the trigger groups over jigging up and milling a few thou off of my customer's 1000.00 sage stocks. I've got 5 more here to get done before mid december so we'll see how many more require this trigger housing modification.
Yes, some have dimension issues and require replacement parts but the sheer volume of the chinese parts going across my bench, I am not buying into the "soft" chinese trigger parts anymore. The odd one for sure has issues, but for the most part, and especially on the newer specimens, soft metal sears and hammers are a thing of the past. incorrect sear dimension rears it's ugly head here and there in that the left hand side sear is not cut 90 degres to the trigger. the critical surface for hardness is the underside of the sear so these angles can be corrected to a degree as the adjustment is done on the upper sear angle..... a non critical surface for maintaining specific hardness qualities....... to a point.... there are of course limits here.
BUT, the growing number of extremely happy clients who's BONE STOCK trigger groups have had my trigger job procedure applied..... have been providing me with a growing list of exceptional feedback...... and none have come back to me complaining of problems.
I average about 5 civillian match trigger jobs a week.
If you want it done right, the first time, and aren't so gullible to fall for the the "you must replace with garand or G.I. parts" mantra, shoot me an email.
my civillian match, 5 lbs 2 stage trigger jobs are only 75.00 plus shipping, and I personally guarantee every single one I do
as for stocks and fitting..... it's in the stickies on how to relieve the stock. My advice is to gently remove material from the rear bearing pad area first, before messing with the stock forward trigger pads. VERY rarely do we want to alter the stocks receiver bearing surfaces on the top.....
there is a specific measurement for the distance from the stocks rear heel bearing point at top rear of stock, to the rear trigger bearing pads.
In my shop, this dimension is checked prior to any alteration of stock or receiver/trigger bearing points.
so what does a guy do when this dimension is checked and it is within tolerance, and the receiver is firmly and fully seated into the stock...... yet the trigger function is still a fail? We DO NOT want to reduce these dimensions under tolerance, mag fit issues and other problems can arise.
the correct procedure is to remove material from the actual trigger group bearing points.... of the trigger housing. This is tricky and not for the inexperienced. Incidentally, 9 of the 13 sage builds i've put together since they landed in canada several months ago, the solution was to correct the bearing points of the trigger groups over jigging up and milling a few thou off of my customer's 1000.00 sage stocks. I've got 5 more here to get done before mid december so we'll see how many more require this trigger housing modification.
Last edited:
OK Fine,
I'll rewrite my previous posting to clarify a few things:
I have always approached the M14 mainly from the perspective of it being a project for DO IT YOURSELF type gunsmithing. All the stickies I’ve written that are posted in the battle rifle section, what I teach at my seminars, and most of my posts on the subject of the M14 rifle, are intended for do it yourselfers.
I'll re-write my previous posting to read ...
“I do NOT teach an M14 TRIGGER JOB AS A VIABLE PROJECT for the Do it yourselfers. IMHO, any INEXPERIENCED DO IT YOURSELFER who attempts to do a proper M 14 trigger job using the soft, usually out of spec NORC parts,
is p!ssi'n in the wind ... unless they are just doin' it for practice."
Thomas is experienced enough with the Chinese M14s to know which trigger parts should be usable, and which should be avoided, so if he chooses to use the original Chinese parts, you can assume that he has carefully inspected them for proper geometry and hardness. Knowing which is which, is part of why he gets paid the big bucks as a professional M14 smith, who guarantees his work.
This would NOT be the type of job recommended for any one without extensive M14 experience, and even some so-called professional gunsmiths who don't have sufficient experience with the M14, might not get it right .
In my case, with my trigger sear ground at an angle, and after fitting a different bolt, my hammer would follow when doing the "after assembly safety check". It took a LOT of stoning to get the original sear to work safely, and I would be uncomfortable letting any one else shoot this rifle.
However,
after a [ two month ] wait, my new Italian Garand Hammers and triggers finally arrived. A few minutes work, and my NEW Garand trigger, working with the original Chinese hammer, now gives me a perfect 4 1/2 lb NO CREEP trigger.
And with the GI trigger, I know it will stay that way for a long time.
Except for the two month wait, not a bad deal for $ 10.
[;{)
LAZ 1
I'll rewrite my previous posting to clarify a few things:
I have always approached the M14 mainly from the perspective of it being a project for DO IT YOURSELF type gunsmithing. All the stickies I’ve written that are posted in the battle rifle section, what I teach at my seminars, and most of my posts on the subject of the M14 rifle, are intended for do it yourselfers.
I'll re-write my previous posting to read ...
“I do NOT teach an M14 TRIGGER JOB AS A VIABLE PROJECT for the Do it yourselfers. IMHO, any INEXPERIENCED DO IT YOURSELFER who attempts to do a proper M 14 trigger job using the soft, usually out of spec NORC parts,
is p!ssi'n in the wind ... unless they are just doin' it for practice."
Thomas is experienced enough with the Chinese M14s to know which trigger parts should be usable, and which should be avoided, so if he chooses to use the original Chinese parts, you can assume that he has carefully inspected them for proper geometry and hardness. Knowing which is which, is part of why he gets paid the big bucks as a professional M14 smith, who guarantees his work.
This would NOT be the type of job recommended for any one without extensive M14 experience, and even some so-called professional gunsmiths who don't have sufficient experience with the M14, might not get it right .
In my case, with my trigger sear ground at an angle, and after fitting a different bolt, my hammer would follow when doing the "after assembly safety check". It took a LOT of stoning to get the original sear to work safely, and I would be uncomfortable letting any one else shoot this rifle.
However,
after a [ two month ] wait, my new Italian Garand Hammers and triggers finally arrived. A few minutes work, and my NEW Garand trigger, working with the original Chinese hammer, now gives me a perfect 4 1/2 lb NO CREEP trigger.
And with the GI trigger, I know it will stay that way for a long time.
Except for the two month wait, not a bad deal for $ 10.
[;{)
LAZ 1
