(Very) old 16 ga owners - what're you feeding them?

H Wally

H Wally

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Looking for some first hand input on what you guys feed your old 16 gauge guns? I've got a nicely made 1890's made German SxS as well as a later 1920's era Belgian SxS in the same caliber. Hoping to get them running, and looking for info on Kent and RST light/low pressure shotshells, or really any low pressure shotshell available.

I've had the chance to shoot some light pressure kent in a 30's era 16 gauge and found them quite light, but am looking for some actual experience with early mild steel and damascus barrel shooters.

I'm expecting the 1890's era gun is likely a Black Powder only gun despite being a beauty of a gun, but if I can find light smokeless loads I'd be glad to use them to reduce possible BP related corrosion.
 
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I don't have any pre-1900 16's although I have a good number of 12's from that era. My 16's are mostly from 1920 through 1935. So it's not quite the issue, but still important. I have been very happy with the Kent Gamebore 21/2" in 16. As an aside I shoot Gamebore loads out of my Black powder only proofed Army & Navy 12 gauge from around 1890.
 
I don't have any old 16 gauge guns but have several in 12 gauge. I have used Kent pure gold or gamebore in them. I can't remember but I think pressure is around 7200 psi. 16 gauge pressures will be different. I've also used polywad low pressure loads but you can't buy them in Canada. Here is the answer I got from Polywad when I enquired about pressures of their 12 gauge shells.

"These Vintagers in the 2 1/2" length are loaded to stay between 5 and 6,000
psi, with 7/8 Oz payloads that are to run about 1175 to 1200 fps.

Close to "blackpowder" pressures--with modest payloads, they are very easy
on guns (and old gunners like me)".
 
These are Damascus barrels? I'd be doing custom mild handloads (good reason to get started handloading right there), and at least a dozen test fires with long cords.
 
If the barrels are sound with little if any pitting and sufficient barrel wall thickness, it's meaningless whether they are Damascus or fluid steel. Things, beside what I just mentioned, I would be looking for from a safety standpoint is whether the chambers had been lengthened.

If the barrels are sound and on face, the most important reason for using low pressure loads is to minimize recoil action on the stock. After 100 years, the wood usually just isn't able to handle the pounding. That's why all my guns get a stock refinish that includes a removal of the soaked in oil, and starting about 5 guns ago, a glassing of the inletted portion of the stock. Once I've done that, and again, assuming the barrel standards have been met, I'm fine with pressures up to around 8500 psi in any of my guns. Even with only black powder proofs.

Further comment about barrels. A generally accepted minimum standard for barrel wall thickness is .020. I prefer to stay closer to a minimum of .030. But having said that, what's really important is the varying thickness as you move back up the barrel towards the chambers from wherever the minimum is. That is why the chamber lengthening issue is so important.....has the lengthening made the barrels walls too thin as the exterior of the barrels taper. This is where max pressure occurs and this is where most barrels blow....first nine inches of the barrels. So while I may sound pretty cavalier about what pressures I'm prepared to use, it is based on knowing exactly what the minimum standards of barrel wall thickness is at various points in each of my guns.
 
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gunsaholic said:
I don't have any old 16 gauge guns but have several in 12 gauge. I have used Kent pure gold or gamebore in them. I can't remember but I think pressure is around 7200 psi. 16 gauge pressures will be different. I've also used polywad low pressure loads but you can't buy them in Canada. Here is the answer I got from Polywad when I enquired about pressures of their 12 gauge shells.

"These Vintagers in the 2 1/2" length are loaded to stay between 5 and 6,000
psi, with 7/8 Oz payloads that are to run about 1175 to 1200 fps.

Close to "blackpowder" pressures--with modest payloads, they are very easy
on guns (and old gunners like me)".
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The Kent Gamebore 16 gauge 2 1/2" 1 oz shells are around 8100 psi.
 
canvasback said:
If the barrels are sound with little if any pitting and sufficient barrel wall thickness, it's meaningless whether they are Damascus or fluid steel. Things, beside what I just mentioned, I would be looking for from a safety standpoint is whether the chambers had been lengthened.

If the barrels are sound and on face, the most important reason for using low pressure loads is to minimize recoil action on the stock. After 100 years, the wood usually just isn't able to handle the pounding. That's why all my guns get a stock refinish that includes a removal of the soaked in oil, and starting about 5 guns ago, a glassing of the inletted portion of the stock. Once I've done that, and again, assuming the barrel standards have been met, I'm fine with pressures up to around 8500 psi in any of my guns. Even with only black powder proofs.

Further comment about barrels. A generally accepted minimum standard for barrel wall thickness is .020. I prefer to stay closer to a minimum of .030. But having said that, what's really important is the varying thickness as you move back up the barrel towards the chambers from wherever the minimum is. That is why the chamber lengthening issue is so important.....has the lengthening made the barrels walls too thin as the exterior of the barrels taper. This is where max pressure occurs and this is where most barrels blow....first nine inches of the barrels. So while I may sound pretty cavalier about what pressures I'm prepared to use, it is based on knowing exactly what the minimum standards of barrel wall thickness is at various points in each of my guns.
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If you say so, but I come from a time and place where youngsters blew up a fair number of shotguns testing their grandfather's guns with smokeless powder shells. And I remember playing basketball against a kid who'd lost his left thumb that way, he'd skipped the testing.
 
Big Bad, you said it yourself. Youngsters!

I'd be willing to bet they didn't carefully inspect the bore condition, measure the barrel wall thickness, determine if the chambers had been lengthened and know the pressure generated by the shells they were firing.

That's like not driving cars because a few 12 year olds have got behind the wheel and had an accident.
 
Canvasback - appreciate the help! I'm not terribly experienced with shotguns so always glad to have more info on them. From an initial appraisal they appear to be in good to very good condition and a wax cast of the chambers showed them to match their barrel stampings, but haven't checked wall thickness so I'll have to do that. I'd love to get them shooting as they're quite unique, and frankly I'd rather do it right, rather than rely on proof testing and possibly blowing up some pieces of art in the process :p

Thanks again for the input. I guess Kent's really the only low pressure shell producer on the Canadian Market, so when it comes to that point it'll be an easy choice :p I already reload for enough other cal's I'm hoping to avoid 16 ga as well since I won't be shooting them often, but hey, if they're fun another caliber probably won't ruin me... probably.
 
H Wally said:
Canvasback - appreciate the help! I'm not terribly experienced with shotguns so always glad to have more info on them. From an initial appraisal they appear to be in good to very good condition and a wax cast of the chambers showed them to match their barrel stampings, but haven't checked wall thickness so I'll have to do that. I'd love to get them shooting as they're quite unique, and frankly I'd rather do it right, rather than rely on proof testing and possibly blowing up some pieces of art in the process :p

Thanks again for the input. I guess Kent's really the only low pressure shell producer on the Canadian Market, so when it comes to that point it'll be an easy choice :p I already reload for enough other cal's I'm hoping to avoid 16 ga as well since I won't be shooting them often, but hey, if they're fun another caliber probably won't ruin me... probably.
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Without correct tools, measuring wall thickness accurately can be next to impossible. Even with the proper gauges that can get right to the middle of the barrels, it can be a bit of an art. I leave that task to a very experienced gunsmith.

Wall thickness is very likely to be more than sufficient to handle what might be termed low and medium pressure loads, PROVIDING BOTH CHAMBERS AND BORES ARE ORIGINAL. The barrels stamping may include original bore diameter as well as chamber so check that. And of course, wall thickness is rendered moot if there is pitting that creates a weak point. Except you will likely know where it will fail so don't hold it there. (That's a bad joke).
 
Not that it would allow you to check for concentricity of the chambers in the barrel, but wouldn't casting the chambers and forward into the barrel a ways give you the ID of the chambers, forcing cone and first section of the barrel, then take measurements of the barrel's OD for a rough idea?

Might also be able to get a dial indicator in there, but yeah, not standard stuff.
 
Brutus said:
I could be wrong, but I do believe proofing loads are a one time deal versus a dozen of them.

Maybe someone else with much more experience could chime in here?
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I said what I'd do. I expect you are correct on the technical point, but I just hate being blown up about the hands and facial area and it makes me extra cautious.
 
Read up on proofing just for fun. I was reminded that normal proofing is done with a newly made barrel and involves test firing an overpressure load in order to demonstrate the gun has a safety margin. Reading what's said regarding old Damascus barrels and the possibility of the hammered bands unwelding, sped up by sulfur infiltration, corrosion, and general old age, it seems that the blown up barrels of my youth were nothing unusual. In fact, a lot of people discussing this in other forums come down saying they wouldn't shoot such a shotgun at all and frankly that's what I would do, or not do; I'd keep the gun as an antique. But for those that want to shoot old barrels there are a lot of suggestions about what to do in the way of testing if you Google 'proof firing Damascus guns.'
 
Forgot to say I read something about relining Damascus shotgun barrels and making them safe and stable, never heard of that in Canada but apparently an option. I could imagine converting a 16 to a 20 using a nice thick liner, I'd shoot that no problem.
 
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Big Bad said:
Forgot to say I read something about relining Damascus shotgun barrels and making them safe and stable, never heard of that in Canada but apparently an option. I could imagine converting a 16 to a 20 using a nice thick liner, I'd shoot that no problem.
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There was a fellow in the US relining barrels a few years back. It was called Teaque lining but it is no longer done. You can get barrel tubes or liners from someone such as Brileys who will custom fit them to a gun. You can alo buy universal tubes from them. But they are not cheap.
 
Nigel Teague is British. His process for lining barrels is discontinued and out of favour. Correct the http for the link to work for you.
htp://www.vintageguns.co.uk/articles/barrel-lining/
 
Big Bad said:
Read up on proofing just for fun. I was reminded that normal proofing is done with a newly made barrel and involves test firing an overpressure load in order to demonstrate the gun has a safety margin. Reading what's said regarding old Damascus barrels and the possibility of the hammered bands unwelding, sped up by sulfur infiltration, corrosion, and general old age, it seems that the blown up barrels of my youth were nothing unusual. In fact, a lot of people discussing this in other forums come down saying they wouldn't shoot such a shotgun at all and frankly that's what I would do, or not do; I'd keep the gun as an antique. But for those that want to shoot old barrels there are a lot of suggestions about what to do in the way of testing if you Google 'proof firing Damascus guns.'
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Reading up on proofing, you may have discovered that back in the day, the Birmingham proof house tested the relative strength of fluid steel vs Damascus. The top barrels were overwhelmingly Damascus. That is to say, the barrels that took the highest pressures before they blew.

And I'd be curious as to what other forums you are referencing. The two forums that I am aware of that have the most specialized interest in old shotguns and thus Damascus barrels, rather than a more general appeal, are doublegun forums and 16 ga Society. Additionally the publication Double Gun Journal has an abiding interest in old SxS shotguns. All three of these entities have reams of information on them and from their members completely at odds with the speculation you are providing here, vis a vis the safety of using properly inspected Damascus barrels with low and medium pressure loads.

In fact Double Gun Journal ran a series of articles by Sherman Bell about 10 years ago. He was trying to prove/disprove exactly what you are talking about. And so he gathered a large-ish quantity of old, decrepit barrels, both fluid steel and Damascus and fired them with proof type loads until they failed. While not under the controls of a laboratory environment, it was an example of real world circumstances (excepting the proof loads). Almost universally, the Damascus held on longer than the fluid steel barrels. And all of the barrels started in very rough shape.

If you want to make a statement along the lines of "one needs to be very careful when using old barrels, especially with modern ammunition" I am in complete agreement. But singling out Damascus from fluid steel as somehow inherently more dangerous, under similar circumstances, does not hold up except in the old wives tales of the shooting community.

It's physics, not some black art and it's certainly not the innuendo the marketing departments of the ammunition and gun companies and their shills, all with a vested interest in the sales of new guns, have been spreading since the 1920's.
 
Thanks for the tipoff on the 16 gauge society - hadn't seen them. Looks like a good place to check out. Doublegun forum's probably another good place to check out, but man, checking all these forums takes a lot of time :d
 
H Wally said:
Thanks for the tipoff on the 16 gauge society - hadn't seen them. Looks like a good place to check out. Doublegun forum's probably another good place to check out, but man, checking all these forums takes a lot of time :d
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Besides DB Journal and the DB online forum a very similar website with a wealth of excellent input, is NitroExpress dot com or words to that effect IIRC.

I also concur with canvasback's latest post here.

Cheers.....
 
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