Vienna Made SxS?

Torandir

CGN Regular
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Newfoundland
Hi All, i have a chance to acquire a side by side pinfire shotgun. For me, it's more as a curiosity/cool factor, and the fact that it is very pretty. This however is way out of my expertise range as i'm almost exclusively focused on Milsurp stuff. If anyone can give me some info on it or point me in a direction to look, it would be great. I was able to take a few photos the last time i had it in hand and have attached a link to those below:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/e4emYXkucTUaG9196

Thanks!
 
Hi All, i have a chance to acquire a side by side pinfire shotgun. For me, it's more as a curiosity/cool factor, and the fact that it is very pretty. This however is way out of my expertise range as i'm almost exclusively focused on Milsurp stuff. If anyone can give me some info on it or point me in a direction to look, it would be great. I was able to take a few photos the last time i had it in hand and have attached a link to those below:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/e4emYXkucTUaG9196

Thanks!

Did I hear someone say pinfire..?

Well, you have something very special, to be sure.

The gunmaker Mathias (or Mathais or Matthias) Nowotny moved from Leitmertz, Bohemia to Wien (Vienna) in 1836, where he became gunmaker to the courts and nobility, producing guns of exquisite quality. His gunmaking career came to an end in 1856 when he committed suicide, said to have been prompted by a love-triangle. His widow sold the business to Nowotny’s master engraver Johann Springer in 1857, who was married to Nowotny’s sister. His guns were marked “Johann Springer Formerly Mathias Nowotny, in Wien,” or variations thereof, which appears on your gun in fine gold letters. Springer ran the business, which is still operating today (under the name “Joh. Springer’s Erben,” “Purveyor to the Imperial Court of Austria since 1836.”)

Springer made very fine quality guns. The etched barrels on your gun have a remarkable feel, yes? That style of barrel finishing was popular in Austria and Germany at the time. Pinfires were popular on the Continent from the 1840s right to the early 1900s, so dating one is never easy. However, a few Springer pinfires have been recorded, and by your serial number, yours might be close in date to 1860 or thereabouts – maybe even a bit earlier. You might even try contacting the company by their website, they might have original records. The forward underlever fitted under a small wooden fore-end is the type seen on other Springer pinfires I’ve seen pictures of.

Yours looks like a good example that doesn’t look messed with. This is a gun by a top maker, equal to the best of the best. The lack of chequering at the wrist is common on Continental pinfires, and not necessarily a sign that it has been altered. The swivels are typical and are original. It might on the surface seem like ‘just an old gun’ but this one is special, take care of it.

Thanks for sharing your pictures!
 
Thanks for the info, I like said, shotguns are out of my realm of expertise, but I saw this one and thought it was different. I will try reaching out to the company to see if they have any records of this one. Any idea on the value of something like this? Haven't actually picked it up yet, but I've really got no idea what to even offer for this. Obviously being pinfire, it's not really going to be a shooter, though the bores appear quite good with minimal pitting at the chamber end. I'd like to offer a fair amount as i've had good dealings with this fellow before!
 
Torandir, setting a value on a pinfire is a tricky, and wholly a matter of perspective. As you surmise, it can never be a shooter, and that’s the main point of reference in Canada. It is, to use the kiss-of-death term, a “wall-hanger,” and the Canadian market sets a low value on these. To someone who just likes the look or ‘old vibe’, $100 is enough to pay for a man-cave decoration. A slot in a gun-safe is valuable real estate, so not many are going to purchase such a gun just to take up room in a safe. A wall-hanger on a gun-show table is not a lot of money.

To someone wanting a pinfire as a collector piece, the value goes up. Someone with money to spare could easily fork out $200-300 or more and consider it a good bargain for an interesting piece of gunmaking history, if they are interested in such things, or just a cool or weird-looking gun -- something to round out a collection, already having flint and percussion guns. These latter two can have a much higher perceived value in Canada, as these can be shooters with the materials available.

Then you get into the serious collectors. One of these hypothetical beings might be interested in European guns, or specifically Austrian guns, whose eyes widen and breathing stops at “Johann Springer,” like people do when they hear ‘Purdey,’ ‘Boss,’ or ‘Holland & Holland.’ A Springer pinfire is not a ‘factory’ gun. A few hundred might have been made over the space of several decades, not a few hundred thousand. Most will have been converted to centre-fire, or destroyed by time. These guns were made at a time when a shooting season might involve many thousands of rounds in driven shoots, or still substantial use in walked-up shooting. Someone who could afford a Springer had land, time, and a burning passion for the hunt. If the gun is indeed from the beginning of the Springer business, maybe even pre-1860, then the number of Springer pinfires would be in the tens, not hundreds. Sure, more were made later, possibly for a few decades, but an early one? Rare indeed. An earlier gun would be more likely to have been engraved by Springer himself. Questions might be raised on who made the locks? The barrels? Another type of serious collector will be interested in the type of action and barrel fastening, and where it fits in gunmaking history. How does it compare to other Springer pinfires? (a few have shown up at auction) Does the under lever engage a single bite or notch, or two? Does it follow Lefaucheux’s design, or did Springer add his own improvements? As to my own interests in the adoption of the pinfire system in Britain, what design influences from European guns occurred, and when? The year 1860 predates about 99% of British pinfires, so anything around then has a different kind of historical significance.

To a serious collector, getting one’s hands on a Springer pinfire could be a bargain at $1000, and climb upwards from there. I’m not above paying several thousand for a ‘wall-hanger’ if I feel I need it to fill a knowledge gap in my research, though it has to be worth it. But not every pinfire is worth that kind of cash, most are not (even to me), and there are important caveats that come into play, most important being condition. A $3000 gun can become a $30 gun with the swipe of a buffing wheel, a splash of wood stain, or curious fiddling with the wrong screwdriver. Or dry-firing. Or poor storage. Or rust. Or replaced parts. Or the wrong cartridge. A Springer pinfire would probably have been brought over by an immigrant, taking their pride and joy with them to a new land. I expect it was in its original oak or mahogany case, with pinfire loading tools. A quality gun by an exclusive maker. Fast-forward a few generations later, it is sitting at the back of someone’s cupboard, wood drying out, an uncleaned bore left to corrode, case and tools long gone, and maybe used as a kid’s plaything.

The danger of such a gun being messed with is much higher on this side of the Atlantic, as it will have had no perceived value to protect it. In Europe, interest in the pinfire is greater, though they too went through a period in the early to mid 20th century when the pinfire had little value and most were recycled or junked. I shudder to think how many British pinfires were junked, iron melted down and their stocks fed into the woodstoves that kept workers warm while they built the next trend of guns.

Sorry for the long-winded answer, but to get back to your question of value, it depends on condition, and the reason someone might want it. Both of these are different depending on where you are at the time, and extremely variable. I would be surprised to hear of two early Johann Springer pinfires in Canada (I was surprised enough to hear of one), in other words the odds are that you are unlikely to ever see another. How much that is worth is difficult to pin down. Unfortunately some sellers think “old gun=$$$$$”, and that’s certainly not the case. Even uniqueness has little monetary value in the Canadian gun market – big-production machine-made Winchesters go for exorbitant sums, while craftsmen's’ pieces go for little by comparison. But remember, collector value can go from high to low in an instant by a well-meaning ‘cleaning’ or ‘sprucing up.’ Your pictures are not quite clear enough to judge condition and wear, or to determine specific details.

European makers carry little weight in Canada, in part because of the flood of Belgian junk over the years. Few around here have heard of the best Belgian, French, Austrian makers etc., or seen many top-end pieces. At auction in Europe a Springer pinfire might be had for 700-1000 Euros, for an unmolested piece in good condition, or a few hundred British pounds in the UK, where there is little demand for Continental makers. Or it could be more, depending on the auction, and details on the gun. Many auction buyers in Europe are dealers, so prices go up on the retail collectors market. And pinfires are more likely to appear in a European auction than a North American one. But at the end of the day, a pinfire will always be a curio, little more. That limits the number of prospective buyers, and collection value is about condition, provenance and completeness (the latter two don’t apply with this gun, unfortunately).
 
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Following the earlier advice from Pinfire, I contacted Springer to ask if they happened to have any information with regards to this shotgun. To my surprise, i actually received a response. Some good and bad news though. First, I was informed that any records for serial numbers before 5000 were destroyed in WW2, so unfortunately, with this one being Serial 2499, puts the original records lost to history. However, I was also informed that due to the style and layout of the wording in the makers mark on the barrel rib, the were able to put the date at approximately 1870. This was after the company had been taken over by Springer who married Nowotny's sister as mention above. So thankfully I was able to get a bit of historical provenance on it, but not quite the full historical records. Ver pleasant to deal with back and forth despite the large time difference and language barrier, responses came from the current company CEO! Based on all the supplied information, an especially great tanks to member Pinfire, my plan is to acquire it after doing a pretty thorough inspection of it now that i know sort of what to look for. I'll have to guess on the pricing at the time i get to handle it, but it's pretty obvious I'm not likely to see another one like this ever again. Will post more photos if i do end up acquiring it sometime next week hopefully!
 
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