Weak primer can't ignite the powder...

jeanlikethis

jeanlikethis

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I did some reloading to my 6.5x55 with IMR4350 (40 - 42 gn) & IMR4064 (36 - 37 gn), and Dominion Berdan primer from CanAmmo.

Went to the range today, put the IMR4350 rounds in the chamber, pull the trigger, I heard a weak "POP" and then nothing happened. I ejected the round and found a complete cartridge with a strong strike to the primer. I was thinking the primer is dead, so loaded another round, same thing happened again. Another dead primer? Loaded third round, same.


Then I started to suspect that the primer is weak to start the powder? Good news that I still have some 4064 rounds to try. All 5 4064 round went off, but with noticeable delay between trigger pull and the firing.

Went back home, got the three misfire, pull out the bullet and found: the primer went off, and "burned" the 4350 powder to certain condition but didn't ignite it. All powder stick together inside the case won't come out until I used a screw driver to drive them out. All three rounds are the same. I measured the powder and the grains are all good.

Now it is clear that as a very slow and dull powder, 4350 was not able to be ignited by The weak Berdan primer. I did burned the pour out 4350 as for safety reasons I won't reuse them. They burn good. 4064 is a faster powder and more sensitive to the ignition. So, after a short "warm up" period, it decided to fire.
 
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Those Dominion branded Berdan rifle primers - KV-24N are for 7.62x39mm ammo only, the stronger ones for reliable igniting 6.5x55mm, 7.5x55mm and 7.62x54mm ammo are the KV-762N ones, which they never brought in with their last shipment.
 
You don't say what bullet weight, but I've seen this happen with too light of a charge with slower powders. Powder needs flame and pressure to ignite.
 
Hitzy said:
You don't say what bullet weight, but I've seen this happen with too light of a charge with slower powders. Powder needs flame and pressure to ignite.
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X2

Not enough info to go public and blame Dominion primers for being "weak. This is CGN and it has already entered CGN Folklore.
 
Not take me wrong, I am not blaming the primer. I wish the powder had been as sensitive.

The bullet is 140 HPBT, Hornady. No crimp. I FL the case and it holds the bullet firm and well. The rifle is Swedish M96. all normal configurations.

I have checked the load data and stay in the lower to mid end of the charge.
 
I also had some K31 cartridge loaded with the same primer, but all 4064 powder. I will keep the rounds and see if it will ignite. Other wise, will need to reassemble the rounds.

Any way, stay with Boxer might be the ultimate solution.
 
jeanlikethis said:
Not take me wrong, I am not blaming the primer. I wish the powder had been as sensitive.

The bullet is 140 HPBT, Hornady. No crimp. I FL the case and it holds the bullet firm and well. The rifle is Swedish M96. all normal configurations.

I have checked the load data and stay in the lower to mid end of the charge.
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You're using low-mid range loads whose Max is low-mid range in deference to M96 actions. That puts the 4350 at the low end of pressure that will reliably ignite it, and a bit higher for the 4064. Depending on your chamber dimensions, brass capacity and throat length, you could be further lowering the chamber pressure. The remedy is to up the charge weight. I'm assuming that you don't have a chronograph, but that would be the best way to determine the max load and the suspected cause of the hangfires. Even though a magnum primer might make those low-end charge weight ignite more reliably, I wouldn't blame the primers.
 
diopter said:
Combination of factors:

http://theswissriflesdotcommessageb...for-RWS-5608-Berdan-NATO-primers#.V0MEoZErLIU

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdanprimers.html

http://www.dave-cushman.net/shot/berdan_supplies_dimensions.html
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As quoted from another shooter on another forum on your supplied links -

"Russian KV24N and KV762N primers

When I use the Russian KV24N Berdan primers, intended for the 7.62x39, in cartridges like the 7.5x55, I get lots of hang fires and duds, especially with stick type powders. I have not tried them in GP11 brass with easier to ignite pistol/shotgun powder. Some of my friends on the Cast Boolit board tell me that they took a drill and opened up the GP11 flash holes, and the KV24N worked fine.

I have used the KV24N primers in both Yugo and Finnish 7.62x39 Berdan pocketed cases, and they worked fine. The flash holes on the Yugo brass are big, and the Finnish flash holes are a bit bigger than those on GP11.

The primer intended for 7.62x51 class cases is the KV762N. These were first imported by PMC about a dozen years ago. They are taller than the primer mentioned above, softer, and have a lot more explosive in them. They are silver colored. I don't like using them in the 7.62x39 because I got some slam fires when I tried them. I don't like using them in any cartridge fired in a firearm without a firing pin retraction spring. I have had excellent results using these primers with GP11 brass, both with the bulk equivalent of H414 and H4198."



The other Dominion brand Boxer primers seem to work very well as intended for their applicable size and application.
 
Here are some other CGN discussions about these Berdan primers -

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1016974-Dominion-Primers-Now-in-Stock?

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1017516-Dominion-Arms-Non-corrosive-Primers?

mkrnel said:
Just to help people out with some info so they can decide if they need to get the Berdan primer available from Canam.

I had hoped that these primers were going to be good for reloading my Swiss 7.5x55 ex-mil ammo Berdan cases (have lots left over from shooting my K31), so before I bought some I checked them out on their website and noticed that the product code id's them as - DAKV24NPRIME primers.

Now from previous research on these Russian Murom Primers I have found this info from a well known reloader on the web -

"I've reloaded a lot of Berdan primed cases, and they can give spectacularly good results, but there are a lot of caveats. I could afford to shoot all factory ammo, but I like working with my hands, I'm rather tight with a buck and Berdan primers let me lower my brass cost effectively to zero. For the same .217" diameter, you will find many different heights, hardnesses and explosive strengths. DAG has brought in TulAmmo KV-24N and KV-762N, both made by Murom in Russia. The former is intended for the 7.62x39, is shorter, harder and has less explosive strength than the latter. The latter is intended for 7.62x51-class calibers, is taller, seems softer to me, and has greater explosive strength.

Batches of these two primers have been brought in before. Both are made by Murom in Russia. PMC brought in a lot of the KV-762N about 12 years ago, and I have shot them in 7.5 Swiss, FN and SA .303 brass, Albanian and early Bulgarian 7.62x54R and other calibers. They worked great in every bolt-action caliber I tried them in. Swiss 7.5x55 brass loaded with them has been used by me in 4 of the 5 Vintage Military matches I've shot in at Camp Perry, and I got a Gold medal every time. They seemed to get really flat as I approached book maximum loads and velocities, indicating to me they were pretty soft, so I was afraid of using them in loads for semi-autos without firing pin retraction springs.

Several years ago a batch of TulAmmo KV-24N primers were brought in, and I bought a lot of them. I tried them in Lapua Berdan 7.62x39, Yugo 7.62x39, and Swiss 7.5x55. I used 680 powder in the 7.62x39 loads, and with US jacketed bullets the Lapua shot better than the Yugo in an SKS. With the 7.5x55, I got mostly hangfires and duds even with easy to ignite 4064. Others have told me that if they opened up the flash holes on 7.5x55 brass, these primers worked fine.

As an experiment, I primed 7.5x55 cases with both primers and snapped them in a K31 rifle. The KV-762N gave two violet colored, 3 inch tongues of flame out the muzzle. The KV-24N showed just a little orange flame out the muzzle."

So as it appears the ones Canada Ammo are offering are the KV-24N primer meant for 7.62x39mm ammo judging by their product code which is "daKV24Nprime"

Maybe CanadaAmmo can get the KV-762N version in as well, and if so this would be the best one for fullbore Berdan reloading.
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Thanks for all the info....folks....

It is better I pull all my reload GP11 to save the powder and projectile.

GP11 has bigger case and I can already tell the delay from trigger pull and firing in my M96, I don't want to hold the K31 20 sec to wait for the firing. If I need to open the flash hole on each GP11 case, I prefer to turn them into Boxer cases.

Save the trouble and focus on shooting....go Boxer...
 
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