Webley Mk 1** with Canadian markings?

[crusoe]

I wonder if there are any Webley experts out there who can answer this one!

I've now seen - on this forum and elsewhere - several Webley Mk 1** revolvers with the receiver stamped, below and back from the cylinder on the left side, as follows or similar: C/N/1, and 4.07. I've also seen it on several Mk 11 revolvers. These revolvers all seem to have the N mark on the hump, indicating Royal Navy ownership. I understand that the Mk I** was a Royal Navy upgrade of 1914, sometimes of the Mk 1*, but also of unmodified Mk 1 revolvers, presumably including guns already in naval stores.

Several times on this forum I have seen the C/N marking on these revolvers cited as evidence of Canadian Navy ownership. Is this just guesswork, or does anyone know of a published authority? I assume that the numbers indicate date - thus the example above is April 1907. If the C/N/I mark is concurrent with the date mark, then this Canadian ownership mark - if that's what it is - would appear to predate the 1914 conversion.

I'm a bit hesitant about accepting this without authority as I'm not entirely sure of the status of the 'Canadian Navy' circa 1907, and whether or not there are any parallels for the C/N mark on any other arms used by Canadian-based naval forces at this period, prior to the First World War.

The Mark I** with the C/N markings seems rare but has shown up several times recently in Canada, including this forum, suggesting a Canadian connection. However, I suspect that these revolvers have mostly been bought up from the US, and may have been part of the large number of Webleys sold off from Britain to the US in the 60s or so (the two Mk 1** I have seen are both shaved for 45 ACP as happened to most Webley 455s arriving in the US then, and one also had the ENGLAND import mark stamped on the barrel).

There may be a reference work I haven't seen that pins down this Canadian connection. It would be great to find out as it would give these rare revolvers real historical significance to collectors of Canadian guns. All thoughts much appreciated!

 

[sunray]

"...status of the 'Canadian Navy' circa 1907..." No RCN in 1907. No official Canadian navy until 1910.
Any broad arrows on it?

 

[david doyle]

We had a navy before we had the Royal Canadian Navy. we needed royal asscent to tack on the royal part. Lots of info out there on the navy's development. we started arming vessels and calling them Canadian Naval vessels before the RCN was approved.
(guess we got tired of watching the japs do our coastal patrol work for us!)


I have seen/heard about 6 of the 1914 aresenal upgrade webleys in question. IIRC they all are 45 acp conversions.

The early navy was armed with a broad range of eclectic small arms and deck weapons. I think the CN on accepted as indicating Canadian Naval service. I think Salter sold one as such and also he may have sold a CN Ross.

I was really surprised at the length of time that EXC condition arsenal Upgrade languished in the EE. The most modern antique revolver available and with fantastic Canadian Martial history and guys were spending the same on US 1880s commercial guns in worse shape? Guess it shows the yank western movies have more impact on taste then Canadian Valour!

 

[dingus]

MKI** were up graded from MKIs in 1914 at the webley factory most are stamped 1914 as thats when they had the up grades with a MK 5 barrel and cylinder factory installed.
As far as regular MKIs they could of been stamped CN1 later in service.

I will ask a Freind in the USA if theres any Proof that CN1 marked Webleys are Canadian Navy issiued im sure i have asked before and there is some records of the navy in esquilmalt haveing CN1 marked webleys on there boats but id have to check again.

I have a MKI** thats in the orignal 455 Caliber uncut its CN1 marked to.

EDIT:: Well Joe salter seems to know the most about the CN1 marked Webleys so contact him if your Worried about it.

 

[green]

RCN had nine I** Webleys on issue in 1934. "Military Handguns of Canada" Law. Probably acquired as stores with RN ships in WWI.

 

[cantom]

I'm no expert but I had the below bayonet marked CN on both blade and scabbard,(with C Broad Arrow too) plus I saw the matching rifle go through the EE twice. Means Canadian Navy I've been told.

I'd also like to know if that CN1 marked Webley on the EE is former Canadian Navy. If so I wonder why the Brits would have had it to surplus out?

Here's the Webley marking. Compare the fonts...look the same to me!

 

[crusoe]

Very interesting - much research still to do here!

One question is how these Webleys reached the US market. As I noted in my first posting, I'd assumed that they would have been part of the big migration of surplus British Webleys to the US about the 1960s, when most were converted to 45 ACP. Canadian-marked Mk I** guns could have been in stores in Britain since WW2, when many old and 'obsolete' guns were sent to Britain from the colonies as stopgaps during the desperate 1939-40 period (and these old Webleys were not strictly obsolete, being fully upgraded and nitro-proofed, equal to Mk VI).

But if these pistols marked this way were indeed among the Canadian naval depot Mk I** guns listed in Law during the interwar years, they could have remained in Canada and then presumably been sold off as surplus some time after WW2, with most going to the US and being shaved for 45 ACP. But I don't know what the Canadian policy was - were surplus RCN handguns postwar sold off, or destroyed?

 

[david doyle]

stolen is always an option as well. They also could have been part of a ships stores and the whole ship sold or scrapped.