Webley MK.I ammo question

Mr. Buttons

CGN Regular
Rating - 100%
200   0   0
Location
Ottawa
Quick question: was the Webley MK.I (.450 or .455) designed to fire black powder loads and, if so, are there any safety issues associated with firing modern smokeless powder re-loads?

thanks
 
the original load was indeed black powder, but they switched to smokeless over the course of ww1 as stocks where used I believe. They have no issue with a proper load of smokless, assuming good condition. Get it checked by a gunsmith if you aren't sure, find a good loading manuel and have at it.;)

My father shot a S&W 1917 for years with smokless, and they aren't as strong as the old webly's
 
Darren Constable said:
My father shot a S&W 1917 for years with smokless, and they aren't as strong as the old webly's


Whooa! You got that backwards my friend.

I have seen a Webley MkI with the barrel extention welded & recracked from shooting smokeless.

Webley MkI, IIs and early IIIs all predate 1898, while the Smiths debuted in 1908 & 1914/15 respectively. While that doesn't sound like much time there were huge metalurgy advances in that short time period.

If anything the Webleys impress the Heck out of me by withstanding pressures which they were never designed to handle. (Many have been converted to .45acp for the American market, and not experienced any noticable damage). Light smokeless loads seem to be acceptable with the top-break Webleys. Earlier guns are a different story of course.

S&W Triple locks & second model hand ejectors are much stronger than a Webley MkI or II. Having said that Smith did NOT start heat treating their cylinders until about 1915-16 ( partway through the run of the second model hand ejector).

D
 
When cordite (smokeless) ammo was adopted for the Webley in 1894 the cordite load was approved for all Webleys and the .476" Enfield.
 
The pressure limits for .455 ammunition are very low. I can't remember the exact number off hand but to give you an idea the PROOF pressure for the MkVI revolver is less than the SERVICE pressure for the .45 ACP.
I would be very careful of pressure levels with a MkI. The MkI case is longer than the more common MkII case and both used hollow based bullets. A flat based bullet in a short MkII case will likely be vastly over pressure for the MkI revolver.
I have an article by Walter Lyall from the British NRA journal that has specific reloading information for Webleys. It is the best article I have found on the subject. Most reloading information is targeted at Colt and S&W revovlers which are much stronger than Webelys. I will see if I can find it.
Webley cylindersare made of unheatreated mild steel. Mild steel of that era is very soft and the locking bolt notches on a Webley are deep, making the cylinder very weak in that spot.
 
More Webly ammo questions

More questions on Webley's and the ammo or choices available. A friend has a Webley & the calibre is 45 Webley. Anyone have any experience on obtaining this ammo, or as / Cartridges of The World, making it from some other available brass? The book says "it is similar to the 450 Revolver & the two will enterchange in most revolvers". The trouble is, I see about the same numbers of 450 Revolver ammo/cases around as I do 45 Webley. Then the book states, "ammunition could probably be made cutting off 455 Webley cases". As the 45 Webley case length is listed @ 0.820" & the 455 Webley length 0.770", it's already shorter, so what exactly do they mean by 'cutting off' 455 Webley cases? Also, the 455 rim diameter is listed as being about 0.030" bigger. That aspect may not be a problem as the rims may not be recessed in the cylinder, I can't recall at the moment. I would think the rim thickness would be more critical and the 455 rim seems to be about 0.004" thinner. I was going to try & reload some 'light' loads for him but do you see my dilemma?:confused: Any suggestions?
 
Which model of Webely does he have?
Fiocchi still makes both .450 revolver and .455 Webley. The Shooting Edge in Calgary was stocking .455 ammo.
Graff & Sons in the US did a apecial run of Webley brass, they have a distributor in BC whose name escapes me at the moment (BC redneck ?)
Just about any .45 revelover casing can be turned into Webely brass. The FRONT edge of rim has to be thinned. .45 Schofield brass is probably the best to start with but it isn't exactly common either. I used .45 AutoRim and turned the rim to size.
There are two common .455 cases the MkI. originally intended for black powder and the shorter MkII cases for smokeless. I prefer the longer case as it is easier to keep the pressure low. The Short MkII case is by far the more common of the two. The proper bullet diameter for a Webely is .451 or .452 just to add a little more confusion.
 
Starline makes great 45 scofeild cases. There soild head and much stronger than the old 455 domion semi ballon head cases.
I just thin the forward side of the 45 starline scofeild cases and they fit all my british 455 guns.
But im loading them to the nuts with pyrodex and getting way better acuracy than with the 5 grain Unique load of smokeless i was useing + theres that bonus of Stinky fingers :D
The webley no 4 pryse show here has long enough cylinder to shoot the 45 scofeild in. I still load the proper 265 grain hollow based webley bullets.
But im gona try some keiths 250 grain .454 dia bullets to see how they shoot.

Heres my webley no 4 pryse Antique
Click to enlarge
 
:) Well, allow me to stand corrected then. Still, I wouldn't sweat much shooting light bullseye loads from one. I wasn't suggesting full loads by any means. If anyone is interested I still have the lyman manuel with the loads grandad and dad used. :D



Lee Enfield said:
Whooa! You got that backwards my friend.

I have seen a Webley MkI with the barrel extention welded & recracked from shooting smokeless.

Webley MkI, IIs and early IIIs all predate 1898, while the Smiths debuted in 1908 & 1914/15 respectively. While that doesn't sound like much time there were huge metalurgy advances in that short time period.

If anything the Webleys impress the Heck out of me by withstanding pressures which they were never designed to handle. (Many have been converted to .45acp for the American market, and not experienced any noticable damage). Light smokeless loads seem to be acceptable with the top-break Webleys. Earlier guns are a different story of course.

S&W Triple locks & second model hand ejectors are much stronger than a Webley MkI or II. Having said that Smith did NOT start heat treating their cylinders until about 1915-16 ( partway through the run of the second model hand ejector).

D
 
Darren Constable said:
:) Well, allow me to stand corrected then. Still, I wouldn't sweat much shooting light bullseye loads from one. I wasn't suggesting full loads by any means. If anyone is interested I still have the lyman manuel with the loads grandad and dad used. :D

I agree that light smokeless loads are GENERALLY acceptable in pre-1898 TOP BREAK Webleys.

Old manuals are a great source of info in loading old cartridges. Having said that it is important to realize that the powders of 30+ years ago is not the same as the powders of the same names/designations today.

Use caution.:)

Most of my .455 brass is from shortened & rim-thinned .45 Colt

Regards
D

Fioche (sp) .455 is deemed to be quite HOT by my friends who have used it. They recommended it only for MkV & VI Webleys & Colts/Smiths.
 
Last edited:
Well, it looks as though I'll be picking up an old colt new service in .455 in the next little while. Can't wait to bring her home and start trying to figure out her past. Normally I wouldn't buy one in this (cosmetic) condition, but it was a family members posesion and I want to make sure it stays in the family. She times and locks up tight but sadly dosen't have any original finish left, plus the lower corners of the grip panels are chipped. Still the barrel is clean and crisp, so I'll be scrounging brass for her. I think this would be a suitable candidate for light smokeless loads as well, but is sounds as though Lee Enfield is more experienced in this regaurd, any suggestions?
 
To my regret, in my more foolish days I converted a NS & 2nd model from .455 to .45 Colt. That is what I shoot most of the time (in factory equivilent loads).

I used to shoot pins with them, I kind of inspired a couple of ".455" matches where several shooters brought out 80year old "pin guns" :)

I'll drop you a line with some info.

D
 
Hey thanks! the old timers pin league sounds like fun. I'm currently playing with a 1871 swiss vetterli, so when it's done they'll have to make up a long gun match. :D
 
Back
Top Bottom