Webley Mk. III antique serials

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jrodriguezwang

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So what is the definitive verdict on the antique serial # range for .455 Mk. 3s? Some say within 5000 ish and other say 15,000 ish... I've seen both highs and lows on the shows but feel that water is too murky on the IIIs.

Also, what source could one use to find such information? Would the production record be kept in an archive somewhere in the UK?

Cheers
J.
 
Mine is 76### which seems to be too late to be antique. Its another ridiculous anomalie of Canadian firearms regs that the number stamped into the side detremines its legal status. Perhaps I could get it renumbered!
 
Last I checked they consider them all antique if you contact them for a letter. The serial numbers for the MkIII's are a little messed up, from what I recall they they started the MkIII serial numbers from 1 and got up to the 5-6k range before the British military complained that they were getting duplicate serial numbers with the MkI's. After that, the serial number range jumps to the end of the MkII in the 50-60K range and continues on.
Here is a letter I got one I had that I got de-registered in the 78k range.
webley letter.JPG
 
polkey said:
Last I checked they consider them all antique if you contact them for a letter. The serial numbers for the MkIII's are a little messed up, from what I recall they they started the MkIII serial numbers from 1 and got up to the 5-6k range before the British military complained that they were getting duplicate serial numbers with the MkI's. After that, the serial number range jumps to the end of the MkII in the 50-60K range and continues on.
Here is a letter I got one I had that I got de-registered in the 78k range.
View attachment 1065519
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Thanks for this info! It appears they may not have solid serial references either
 
Over the years, I think there has been a change in approach, from yes, it may well be antique to no, unless you can prove it, it isn't.
 
jrodriguezwang said:
Thanks for this info! It appears they may not have solid serial references either
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I assumed they just consider all the MkIII's antique for simplicity. The above mentioned MkIII was sold through the Army Navy stores and I had a copy of the original sales ledger, sale dated Jan 15th, 1900.
 
So what letter do I need to send in order to get mine deregistered? Are you able to supply the wording that you used? That would be great. Thanks!
 
KotKotofeich said:
Careful there. Check FRN 23400.
Click to expand...

My understanding on this is that the FRT for the Mk III service you brought up are made by Webley and Scott, rather than Webley (Webley and Son).

Allegedly, if it has the Webley and Son HOLLOW base winged bullet logo it's Antique. If it doesn't (ie has the SOLID winged bullet logo) it means it's made by Webley and Scott and not Antique. Thats my understanding, and as Polkey mentioned above, they have approved and lettered guns in the 78000 range as Antique, even going as far as to de-register it. The example he's talking about had the HOLLOW base winged bullet logo. I have also heard what 55Recce mentioned about the serial number location being a deciding factor, in that only civilian guns are antique. The serial number location on the lettered example in the 78000 range has the serial number on the side, as well as the HOLLOW based winged bullet logo. The idea that having the serial number on the side makes it a civilian gun makes sense since Polkey found the sales ledger for it from Army and Navy CSL (which the gun is also marked on the top barrel flat). I have a Mk III in the 600 serial number range that is also marked with the HOLLOW based winged bullet logo, and the serial on the side, with P Webley and Son marked on the top of the barrel, lettered as Antique by the RCMP.

So in summary, what we do know is this;

Sn 6xx is marked on the left side with the HOLLOW based winged bullet logo (Suggesting Webley Manufacture, vs Webley and Scott), with "Webley Patents" marked beside it, with no model designation on the frame. Sn is marked on the right side of the frame, making it Civilian retailed. Also Marked "P Webley and Son" on the top barrel flat, confirming the manufacturer as well as further proving it was Civilian retailed. "Mk III" stamped on left side top strap above cylinder. This example has been Certified and lettered as Antique by the RCMP

Sn 78### is marked on the left side with the HOLLOW based winged bullet logo(Suggesting Webley Manufacture, vs Webley and Scott), with "Webley Patents" marked beside it, with no model designation on the frame, same as Sn 6xx. Sn is marked on the right side of the frame, making it Civilian retailed, same as Sn 6xx. Marked "Army & Navy CSL" on the top barrel flat, further proving it was Civilian retailed. "Mk III" stamped on left side top strap above cylinder. This example has been also been Certified and lettered as Antique by the RCMP

Another point to note, on both FRTs, it lists the lowest knows serial number for the Mk III is 101, and the highest being 80012.

Though having said all that, 2 of the 4 entries on the FRT for Webley and Scott are for Antique with the other two being Prohibited and Restricted. I guess as usual all this is a mess and nobody, including the CFP really knows.

I have attached a screen shot of both so we can compare the manufacturer between the two.
 

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55recce said:
Mine is 76### which seems to be too late to be antique. Its another ridiculous anomalie of Canadian firearms regs that the number stamped into the side detremines its legal status. Perhaps I could get it renumbered!
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Have a look at my post above.

Is your gun 76### marked in the same manner as 78###? If so, I would tell the firearms techs verifying the pistol as antique that they have in fact Certified at least one gun in the 78### range as antique and is marked all the same way. Kinda hard for them to argue that one.

I used this technique to get a C96 lettered as Antique. Told them they approved one in the same serial range and it was verified as antique within a few weeks (lightning fast for a c96 verification, usually takes a year or so) no arguments.

If they say no because the serial is marked on the front underside of the frame, then we know the serial number location is the deciding factor.
 

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C96 1897 said:
My understanding on this is that the FRT for the Mk III service you brought up are made by Webley and Scott, rather than Webley (Webley and Son).

Allegedly, if it has the Webley and Son HOLLOW base winged bullet logo it's Antique. If it doesn't (ie has the SOLID winged bullet logo) it means it's made by Webley and Scott and not Antique. Thats my understanding, and as Polkey mentioned above, they have approved and lettered guns in the 78000 range as Antique, even going as far as to de-register it. The example he's talking about had the HOLLOW base winged bullet logo. I have also heard what 55Recce mentioned about the serial number location being a deciding factor, in that only civilian guns are antique. The serial number location on the lettered example in the 78000 range has the serial number on the side, as well as the HOLLOW based winged bullet logo. The idea that having the serial number on the side makes it a civilian gun makes sense since Polkey found the sales ledger for it from Army and Navy CSL (which the gun is also marked on the top barrel flat). I have a Mk III in the 600 serial number range that is also marked with the HOLLOW based winged bullet logo, and the serial on the side, with P Webley and Son marked on the top of the barrel, lettered as Antique by the RCMP.

Another point to note, on both FRTs, it lists the lowest knows serial number for the Mk III is 101, and the highest being 80012.

Though having said all that, 2 of the 4 entries on the FRT for Webley and Scott are for Antique with the other two being Prohibited and Restricted. I guess as usual all this is a mess and nobody, including the CFC really knows.

I have attached a screen shot of both so we can compare the manufacturer between the two.
Click to expand...

"nobody including the [CFP] really knows" is likely the correct answer. I just don't want to give someone hope.

I have a mkIII that was explicitly denied antique status (not on my application so perhaps I should reapply with it) and it has a hollow based bullet logo. I'll need to dig it out to see where the serial is and I generally need to refresh my notes on the Webleys - I remember researching the serial locations and also the broad arrow stamps.

The hollow based bullet is not proof of anything since guns manufactured past 1898 (the Webley & Scott amalgamation) stll use it. E.g. the mkIV which all are according to the literature post 1898... And I have a statement from one of the techs about that.

Bottom line, as with all antique applications it could go either way and thus my warning.

Here's another example. I applied with a Colt 1873 in 455... Without a Colt letter, thinking that by the time they get back to me I'll have it... Came back approved, I still don't have the letter... This doesn't mean I'd suggest anyone apply for the same model without a Colt letter - next such application I would fully expect a runaround...
 
C96 1897 said:
My understanding on this is that the FRT for the Mk III service you brought up are made by Webley and Scott, rather than Webley (Webley and Son).

Allegedly, if it has the Webley and Son HOLLOW base winged bullet logo it's Antique. If it doesn't (ie has the SOLID winged bullet logo) it means it's made by Webley and Scott and not Antique. Thats my understanding, ...
Click to expand...
A few of us discussed the "hollow base P. Webley & Sons" criterion about 3 years ago now in a thread here: https://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/threads/antique-webley-mark-4-in-455.2339890/

More or less, it was found that this is not exactly necessarily as conclusive on determining antique status as was once thought. These markings have been fully observed on production firearms that were not known to have been available until 1899-1901 and in some instances, much later.

As I said in the past, I would absolutely love to be proven wrong on this as I have a nice little W.P. in .320 Long I'd love to have de-registered. However, no known sources say these guns were produced or sold before 1900.

Old images but see for reference:
Xv9jAJml.jpg

zXtqOoXl.jpg
 
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