So I just purchased an Omega and ran out and bought all the accessories to shot it. I bought 777 FFFG powder and a powder measure. For starters I think measuring a powder like FFFG in a volumetric manner is ridicules. If I tap the measure a couple times I can get an extra 10 grains in there. Secondly are these things really standardized? I think not. So I did a bit of reading on the interweb and it seems that 100 gr volume of Trip 7 weighs about 77gr. So I take my measure and fill it to 100gr volume and throw it on the scale and I get 85gr weight. What gives? IS my measure on the large size? Today I threw 100 gr volume behind a 240 gr sabot and ran it over the chrono. It was going 2088 fps. That's 160 fps over what the Hodgdons site shows in there black powder data. Anyone else have these same observations? Any input is appreciated.
Weighing 777 FFFG powder.
- Thread starter g-manz35
- Start date
It is not really practical to weigh powder out in the bush or at the range (some long range target shooters do it) so most shooters use a volumetric measure.
Here is a link to a volume to weight converter:
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
Here is a link to a volume to weight converter:
http://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm
Volumetric.
I went through a phase where I felt that weighing several volumetric loads, calculating an average, then scaling out that exact average and (placing them in 35 film containers) for a hunt would hugely optimize my muzzleloader.
Way to much like work.
I went through a phase where I felt that weighing several volumetric loads, calculating an average, then scaling out that exact average and (placing them in 35 film containers) for a hunt would hugely optimize my muzzleloader.
Way to much like work.
The serious black powder shooters that are out for good consistency also tend to weigh the charges instead of using volumetric measures for the very reason you found.
And before you go much further is that load you tested over the chrono reduced by 15% compared to BP or Pyrodex as suggested by Hodgdon? Remember that 777 is slightly hotter than BP and Pyrodex so the loads need to be reduced by that 15% factor.
I like hakx's idea of pre-measuring and putting the charges into some sort of handy container. But instead of measuring by volume I'd opt for the equivalent weight of that volume just to avoid the issues you so rightly identified.
Given that you found the velocity to be somewhat higher than it should be I'd suggest drop to around the 77gns by weight you identified as the equivalent weight for indicated volume. Then work on the charge WEIGHT over a range to find the load that gives you the best accuracy without going over the velocity indicated for the gun and bullet. You don't want to get into running higher pressures than the gun is rated for. And from the "magnum" like performance of the 85gn load you measured it would seem like you went a little over that line.
And before you go much further is that load you tested over the chrono reduced by 15% compared to BP or Pyrodex as suggested by Hodgdon? Remember that 777 is slightly hotter than BP and Pyrodex so the loads need to be reduced by that 15% factor.
I like hakx's idea of pre-measuring and putting the charges into some sort of handy container. But instead of measuring by volume I'd opt for the equivalent weight of that volume just to avoid the issues you so rightly identified.
Given that you found the velocity to be somewhat higher than it should be I'd suggest drop to around the 77gns by weight you identified as the equivalent weight for indicated volume. Then work on the charge WEIGHT over a range to find the load that gives you the best accuracy without going over the velocity indicated for the gun and bullet. You don't want to get into running higher pressures than the gun is rated for. And from the "magnum" like performance of the 85gn load you measured it would seem like you went a little over that line.
The Omega is rated for a 150gr Black powder charge. Therefore when using 777 you should not exceed 127.5 gr Vol (150 x .85). What I fired was 100 gr vol. I will no doubt try 110gr and 120 gr behind my 240gr sabot down the road as Hornady has the ballistics table showing this projectile going 2250 when driven with 150gr equivalent of 777. I can't get over how they make recommendations for these loads. Basing it solely on powder charge regardless of the projectile. It seems the Black powder industry is poorly regulated. And as mentioned in a previous post I will be loading containers using weighed charges. I have an RCBS chargemaster so weighing is way easier than using my powder measure.
I shoot quite a bit over the summer and plan on working up the most accurate load I can before hunting season. I've got a few hundred bullets on order and will be heading out as soon as the snow disappears. I'm really looking forward to it. I should have bought a muzzle stuffer 5 years ago.
Thanks for the replies. G
My first BP rifle was a LYMAN 50 cal PLAINS RIFLE.
Like you, I had to go through a learning curve. I had to find out why my groups were always around 6 inches at 100 yards, rather than tighter. Many of the people in the Monashee Mountain Men were convinced the rifle was pretty but a dog. Nope, I borrowed some round balls off a fellow because my supply had fallen out along the rendezvous trail. I had everything else I needed, FFFG powder, caps, and carefully cut patching material. The patching material I had on hand was alter linen. I had purchased it from a fund raiser at the local Catholic Church. I had heard that it was the best patching material a shooter could ask for. It was lovely stuff, all around .015 thick and extremely consistent.
The round balls the fellow gave me, were wrinkled, with a huge sprue stub. Beggars can't be choosers and I was thankful to him for being kind enough to help me out. He probably had 5 pounds of them in his possibles bag. They were cast of pure soft lead of course.
I loaded up my first round and LO and BEHOLD, the rifle shot to point of aim at 50 yards. I was using a 75grain charge of well tamped FFFG under the round ball. It was stout but I hunted with 90 grains of the same powder, under the same ball.
At first I thought it was just a lucky shot. Nope, that rifle shot better than it ever had and the only difference was the poorly cast round balls.
One thing I learned that day, DO NOT TAP the side of the volumetric powder measure. It just doesn't make any sense to do so. This was pointed out to me by the fellow that gave me the round balls. It leads to inconsistent loads. Not only that, in the 50 cal muzzle loader, it just wasn't necessary. A grain one way or the other of the sweet load made little if any difference under 200 yards. He was right. When the bore diameters are that large the difference is not even noticeable.
It wasn't until you mentioned you were shooting an Omega that I understood why you were loading so much powder.
Your rifle is way stronger than my old Lyman, which still loves FFFG x 90 grains on my brass, volume powder measure.
Once it was pointed out to me the reason those ugly round balls shot so well, in about a month, the rifle redeemed itself and I actually became a competitor at the matches.
The round balls I was given, measured exactly .500 diameter. The balls I was casting with the Lyman moulds that were included in the package I bought new as a starter kit, were only .490 diameter. In most 50s, that ball would work fine. Mine of course had a ten thou larger diameter bore. It actually measures .507. The rule of thumb is, the patch and ball should measure about .015 over bore diameter to get a good seal and very slight obduration of the ball, when it is rammed down on top of the powder. It worked like a charm on my rifle and subsequent rifles thereafter.
Your Omega on the other hand is a whole different ball game and you are likely shooting a polymer encased jacketed bullet of 44-45 caliber.
Those bullet configurations shoot very well and make for a nice hunting round.
Back to your powder measure. If you don't have one of the adjustable volumetric powder measures, get one. The only other option is to make one up that holds exactly the volume of powder you use for your particular load.
I like the volumetric measure with the little brass funnel on the end. Two reasons, it eliminates spills and when it is a cold, rainy day, I can add another 5 grains of powder by volume easily.
One thing about a volumetric measure, it is darn consistent, unless you insist on buggering around with a good thing, by tapping it to get more powder into it. They were not made with that in mind.
BP cartridge loaders may be a bit more fussy when it comes to charge weights. I will be finding out shortly. Somehow, IMHO, a grain one way or the other isn't likely to make much if any difference shot to shot on the target.
Like you, I had to go through a learning curve. I had to find out why my groups were always around 6 inches at 100 yards, rather than tighter. Many of the people in the Monashee Mountain Men were convinced the rifle was pretty but a dog. Nope, I borrowed some round balls off a fellow because my supply had fallen out along the rendezvous trail. I had everything else I needed, FFFG powder, caps, and carefully cut patching material. The patching material I had on hand was alter linen. I had purchased it from a fund raiser at the local Catholic Church. I had heard that it was the best patching material a shooter could ask for. It was lovely stuff, all around .015 thick and extremely consistent.
The round balls the fellow gave me, were wrinkled, with a huge sprue stub. Beggars can't be choosers and I was thankful to him for being kind enough to help me out. He probably had 5 pounds of them in his possibles bag. They were cast of pure soft lead of course.
I loaded up my first round and LO and BEHOLD, the rifle shot to point of aim at 50 yards. I was using a 75grain charge of well tamped FFFG under the round ball. It was stout but I hunted with 90 grains of the same powder, under the same ball.
At first I thought it was just a lucky shot. Nope, that rifle shot better than it ever had and the only difference was the poorly cast round balls.
One thing I learned that day, DO NOT TAP the side of the volumetric powder measure. It just doesn't make any sense to do so. This was pointed out to me by the fellow that gave me the round balls. It leads to inconsistent loads. Not only that, in the 50 cal muzzle loader, it just wasn't necessary. A grain one way or the other of the sweet load made little if any difference under 200 yards. He was right. When the bore diameters are that large the difference is not even noticeable.
It wasn't until you mentioned you were shooting an Omega that I understood why you were loading so much powder.
Your rifle is way stronger than my old Lyman, which still loves FFFG x 90 grains on my brass, volume powder measure.
Once it was pointed out to me the reason those ugly round balls shot so well, in about a month, the rifle redeemed itself and I actually became a competitor at the matches.
The round balls I was given, measured exactly .500 diameter. The balls I was casting with the Lyman moulds that were included in the package I bought new as a starter kit, were only .490 diameter. In most 50s, that ball would work fine. Mine of course had a ten thou larger diameter bore. It actually measures .507. The rule of thumb is, the patch and ball should measure about .015 over bore diameter to get a good seal and very slight obduration of the ball, when it is rammed down on top of the powder. It worked like a charm on my rifle and subsequent rifles thereafter.
Your Omega on the other hand is a whole different ball game and you are likely shooting a polymer encased jacketed bullet of 44-45 caliber.
Those bullet configurations shoot very well and make for a nice hunting round.
Back to your powder measure. If you don't have one of the adjustable volumetric powder measures, get one. The only other option is to make one up that holds exactly the volume of powder you use for your particular load.
I like the volumetric measure with the little brass funnel on the end. Two reasons, it eliminates spills and when it is a cold, rainy day, I can add another 5 grains of powder by volume easily.
One thing about a volumetric measure, it is darn consistent, unless you insist on buggering around with a good thing, by tapping it to get more powder into it. They were not made with that in mind.
BP cartridge loaders may be a bit more fussy when it comes to charge weights. I will be finding out shortly. Somehow, IMHO, a grain one way or the other isn't likely to make much if any difference shot to shot on the target.
Muskyhunter1
CGN Regular
- Location
- Near the tree with the crooked limb.
Bearhunter - Great Post.
Yes. I have to agree. And he is correct on a lot of points. I am shooting a 44 cal sabot. And for the purpose of shooting accurately I do not tap the volume measure. I was just pointing out that it could easily be done. I really do like the powder as it provides a lot of poop! I will be shooting it a lot over the summer and will test slightly different charges to see what is most consistent. I will be hunting deer only with it this fall so I do not have to eek out every last bit of performance out of it. I shot a 1/2" four shot group at 35 yards with it the other day (my only group). so if that accuracy holds up out to 100 yards it will not be hard to have a good hunting load for the fall. That being said I will be more than happy to experiment all summer to see if I can improve on that accuracy.
Thanks for the info on round balls. very interesting.
G
antiqueguy
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
- Location
- windsor ontario
id ditch the smokeless(yes 777 is a smokeless powder that's is a volume BP equivalent) it is much worse then real black powder on a number of things but the main ones for me are clean up and ignition temp
