Weighing F class options

308BAR

308BAR

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I'm really enjoying my F class matches, the word "fun" cannot describe it. Been shooting ftr only up to this point haven't shot open yet. However it's really a tale off two rifles, I've built two rifles one for open class 6br and 223rem for ftr. Is it worth getting into F-open? I hear from a few seasoned shooters that it's hard to be competitive in the open class because your trying to keep up with the Joneses when it comes to technology. Deciding if I should dump the 6BR and focus on FTR.

Like too also ask your thoughts 308 versus 223 which has the advantage?
&
How did you guys decide between the two disciplines?
Look forward to your response. Thx.
 
You may find yourself at a disadvantage at longer ranges with the 6BR compared to so many others shooting barrel-burning 6.5s and 7s in F-Open, nevermind the cost of a good quality front rest, etc.

With F-TR the playing field seems to be a little more level, at least in my opinion. Lots of good arguments to be made in the 223 vs 308 debate. I chose .308 because that's what I hunt with so I'd only need one set of dies, etc.

A 308 will be more recoil, more expensive brass, bullets, and powder, but a little easier to load for (more forgiving) and just about any standard twist barrel will work. 223 is nice to shoot all day, but you do need a faster twist barrel in order to shoot the heavier 80-90gr bullets, and you need to be very precise in your loading technique. If you are not planning on reloading right away then 308 has more/better options for factory match ammunition.

Of the shoots I've been to this year there was no clear winner either way; 308s and 223s have both won across ranges from 300m to 900m.
 
I started shooting open with a 6BR and have been able to keep up with (and sometimes surpass) the Joneses with the 6.5's and 7's right from 300m out to 900m. Even got a few possibles at 900m and 1000yds with it.

You do have a disadvantage when the wind picks up, I am not going to lie, but if you want to get into the open class a 6BR is a fantastic cartridge to start with.

Since you were at Mission this past weekend I am going to guess that most of your shooting will be at 600m (Vokes) or less unless you plan on doing some travelling (Washington, Oregon, Alberta, etc...)to shoot the longer ranges.

When the SHTF and my other guns (6.5 and 7mm) aren't shooting well, I always have my BR as a backup and it hasn't let me down yet.
 
In all competition "keeping up with the Joneses" will always be an "issue" for some.
Since you already have built the rifles,shoot them both and see what you enjoy the most. Shoot Open 1 match and FTR another.
A 6BR can kick butt in FO providing the driver can read the conditions and the word is still out, on 223 heavies vs the 308's with their newest bullet offerings.
In reality,take a look at what the top tier finishers are shooting and on the overall,6BR's
are a little tough for the 1000 .
Run with what you have this season and enjoy the "F" ing game. Each time you participate in matches you'll always learn something...
Shoot those barrels out and then start to look at others when time to rebarrel .
JMHO
Gord O
 
i have built dozens of 6brs and they are as accurate a rifle as you will find anywhere if the gun is good and the load is good. it is a miistake to blame the equipment. you need to read conditions whether you us a 223 or a 338 and having a gun that can put bullets through the same hole at 200 makes it much easier to figure out where you went wrong and learn. i have shot many long range br matches with a 6br and it is as precise as the best of any othher cartridge.
 
To maybe help you on your question.

"Deciding if I should dump the 6BR and focus on FTR."

Just got back from a F-Class & Tr shoot in Kingston Ontario some very impressive shooting by La Bill a member on CGN shooting his Defiance Machine action, 1/7 twist barrel at 30 ", Robertson stock and to me one of the finest front bi-pod right there with a Remple, STAR SHOOTER.
Smith was Ian Robertson using my reamer I had made to shoot 90gr 224 by JGS this 223 is sub .200" gun.
On Sat he shot at 300y 2+10 score 50 with 8v,300y 2+15 score 75 with 14v,
at 600 y 2+ 10 score 49 with 8v bulls, 2+15 75 with 13 v there where no .308 close in FTR or the two 6br in open class.
after Sundays shooting he ended up shooting a 489 of 500
I could not catch him after having a tough time at 600 2+10 but ended shooting a 75 with 10v falling 3 points behind 486 of 500 and yes another 223 built by Ian Robertson, Barnard action and Robertson and using also a Star shooter bi-pod.
There was a perfect score shot in TR 500 out of possible 500 with 70 V bulls he only missed 30 v bulls on 100 shots
for me one of the very best TR shooters in the country and a fine gentlman,
Des Vamplew
P1080738.jpg

Here is La Bill waiting on a older TR shooter, he went on to finish his maybe record for Canada 75 with 13 vbulls, his score at 300 of 75 & 14 V bulls could also be a record ???

P1080743.jpg

manitou
 
I started in F open cause I love the tech. had several years of great shooting and experimenting. Used a 6.5 Mystic then 260improved. Worked great and put a few plaques on the wall.

I moved to FTR last season cause I was getting really tired of the constant equipment wear. Not keeping up with the Jones but with barrels without rifling. To stay in peak form, I was constantly prepping new barrels. That added up to a lot of cost and time.

Then the heavier 7 and 30cal bullets started to become the norm. Yes, a 6BR/105 or 6.5 improved can run with ANYTHING BUT the larger bullets do make it more forgiving. Not wanting to elevate recoil and costs even more, I decided new ground in FTR was worth a look.

Of course, I decided to do it the hard way - 223 and develop a new pod. As you can read from a growing number of shooters. The 223 can hold its own with the 308s with far less recoil and costs.

I have won and placed very well in my first season with matches out to 600m. Shot 3 matches in 2011 - Chilliwack 2nd, Homestead westerns - mid pack, Frosty Farky - 1st.

For me, the unknown is matches out to 1000yds. I can see that the 223 is going to be bounced around in the winds and you have to be on your toes to make good wind calls.

That is not a bad thing and I doubt the 308/heavies would be much different (the $64 question). Afterall, wind reading is the whole point of F class.

The unknown is how forgiving or not, the 223 will be in bumpy air out to 1000yds. Having only shot 1 match at Homestead in extremely difficult conditions, I can't say either way - precious few shooters were doing any better even with boomers.

When a "4" or even a "3" sighter is converted, you are shooting in tough air. When a F Open boomer shoots a couple of pretty V's, then a gust comes through and the next shot pushes off the entire target stand - you got winds

So I am working with the 223 cause it is the underdog, has things to get sorted out and I just like the challenge (no recoil is a huge plus for me right now). There is little doubt the mechanical accuracy is there and every bit as good as a 308.

The question is can the average shooter drive it successfully in the winds and at LR? Here the answer gets pretty muddy as there is just so little data to draw from. The vast majority of top shooters around the world still shoot the 308 so any comparison is moot.

If/when we see enough top shooters using the 223/90 out to 1000yds, we can make a good comparison.

The 223 will always win on the cost and recoil question. Accuracy is superb at least to 600m where the vast majority of matches reported are shot. So for anyone including new shooters, wives and kids, the 223 can and does work.

At the 2011 Farky, I believe most of the top placing shooters had 223's (300 and 500m)

I know that right now, the 223/90 combo I have is working "well" and limiting factor is my ability to get the winds right. If I am wrong, I am wrong in a big way BUT is a 308 any different with the same mistake?

11 relays in SK ought to give me a pretty darn good idea of what the potential for me will be.

Development work is done. Now it is just up to my driving skills to see if I can hit that 5 ring.

Jerry

PS, the MPOD is working just fine.... and will be tested by a couple of offshore national teams and shooters in the coming months. That's pretty darn cool....
 
Jerry don,t worry about the 223 with 90 at 1000 it will get you there as good or better than the .308, last Sunday guys practicing at 900m the 223 with pointed 90gr VLD had 3/4moa less wind on than the .308s shooting 185gr and 200gr bullets.
The big thing about the 223 is elevation was not a factor 1/2 to 5/8 moa, the 308 where running 1.5 ++++. hard to tame & be consitant with the big recoil of the .308 with heavy bullets
To obtain the low spread on elevation you can not use a RCBS Chargemaster or any similar scale. you must use a Acculab quality scale .01 not .1 gn 1 tenth grain will give you 8" elevation swings and use a long drop tube so there is no powder crunching.
It will be interesting at Ottawa on canada day weekend at the Eastern F class Championships to see who wins the F/TR the 308 or the 223 at the Spring 3 day Victoria weekend shoot they ended up tied the .308 won via V bulls

Manitou
 
Good luck to the 223's in FTR. The long range shoots can be really tough. Especially since the heavy bullets in 308 caliber have arrived on the scene.
 
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With the .223, the shooter has to make sure his ammo is perfect. With the .308 shooting heavies, he has to make sure his position/gun handling is perfect.

The guy who makes the least mistakes, wins.
 
I shoot a 300 in F-O using 210's and 215's without any issues. I don't know why a 308 shooting 200's a lot slower is considered heavy recoil. My 308 is comfortable and shoots extremely well using the heavies. I consider it easier to shoot than the 223's. A lot less tinkering around also. I believe that the 223 is an experts cartridge for someone who is bored with the simplicity of the 308!! Steve
 
Here is an interesting debate about 308's and the heavies.

Looks like some thought is being made to the changes to the orig rules and intent.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3789256.0

Funny how some things go full circle.

To those that remember what Mr. F proposed, I thought the orig FTR was 156gr 308 and 80gr 223.

Have a read at the thread. Seems that driving the 308/heavies is causing some grief to shooters.

About as challenging as some have had with the 22cal 90's.

Ultimately, winning scores by the best shooters will determine what works.

This is getting as interesting as the evolution of F open.

Jerry
 
Mystic Precision said:
Funny how some things go full circle.

To those that remember what Mr. F proposed, I thought the orig FTR was 156gr 308 and 80gr 223.
Click to expand...

FTR is a relatively recent creation, it has been 223/308 with unlimited bullet weight from the beginning (though much-discussed during its creation was whether or not there should be a bullet weight limit).

What arose out of George Farquharson's efforts was the class called "F-Farquharson", which is a Canadian-only thing, though F-Class around the world grew from the Canadian origins. The ammo for F-Farky is "the same as TR", and that's where the 308/156 and 223/81 figures you cite come from (note that a few years ago the bullet weight limit in TR for 223 was dropped, so under existing Canadian F-Farky rules the weight limits are 308/156 and 223/unlimited).

The vision behind the creation of F-Class was that it would be a natural migration path for existing iron sight TR shooters. You can see that in this scenario, there is a fair bit of sense in an F-Class rifle being a "TR rifle plus a scope and a bipod". However actual experience has been that very few F-Class shooters come from the TR world; most F-Class shooters arrive there directly (either as new shooters entirely, or from other non-TR shooting disciplines). In this case, having a 155 grain bullet weight limit really does not make sense for these shooters, and is more of an impediment than a help.

Several countries other than Canada have 155 weight limits for their local .308 F-Class (South Africa and Australia).

But it seems that having TR-oriented bullet weight limits for 223/308 F-Class has turned out to be an evolutionary dead end. So it came to be that when "FTR" was created by ICFRA (the international fullbore rulesmaking body) that unlimited bullet weight for 223/308 was decided for international competition. Each nation is of course free to use the international rules, to modify them for their own circumstances, or completely ignore them.
 
Thanks for all that info. Makes sense.

Interesting that a limit on bullet weight would be proposed by a top US shooter but I can see where he is coming from.

At some point, cost/recoil/complexity make the game less interesting to some and more difficult for others.

competitors will always work towards "better" solutions and have little interest in the future of the sport these changes bring. The goal of winning is simply too great.

Manf will keep offering goodies that feed that quest. Guilty as anyone else.... Yes, these heavies will spawn new projects from me.

It drives improvements at all levels of shooting.... but at what cost to the parent sport?

I guess we will see if these heavies and the difficulty some will have shooting them will start to limit the progress.

At some point, the 308 case simply can't move a heavier object fast enough to matter so this is rate limiting.

Between now and then, it will be an interesting trip.

Who said tech in a 2 chambering class was boring?

Jerry
 
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