Weird marks on my target paper

[serbinator]

rifle : m1 garand .308 win

ammo i used:

8 rds norinco surplus 147gr, (powder dropped to 37gr instead of 42)

8 rounds PPU Brass, CCI magnum primers, 37gr H4895, Frontier 155gr Plated SPFB ( spirepoint flat base)

8 rounds PPU Brass, CCI magnum primers, 38gr H4895, Frontier 155gr Plated SPFB ( spirepoint flat base)

my gun cycled and operated fine, VERY low recoil with the S.E.I muzzle brake, there are some weird marks on the target though that i have never seen before. can anyone tell me what it is?

note: i was shooting the target below center because i realized i put it up too high and the rounds wouldnt hit the backstop on a good angle, so i shot below center to be on the safe side.

also the target was at 25 yards

 

[bobbynewmark]

looks like powder residue was still blowing off as it spiralled through the target at such close range?

maybe some of the plated bullets were spinning their plating off or coming apart altogether? Just a guess... never seen this before

 

[Brutus]

25 yards or 25 inches??

That looks like powder burn buddy!

 

[bobbynewmark]

were you shooting in Barrie?

 

[9.3mauser]

Looks like key-holing, especially the one above the '8'. Basically the bullet hasn't stabilized and isn't flying nose first. It can be caused by a number of things; undersized bullets, oversized bore, excessively worn bore, and bullets that are physically too long for the rate of twist. You could try backing up and reshooting at 100 yards or even farther... sometimes the bullets need a little time to settle down and fly point first.

 

[serbinator]

25 yards, i was not shooting in barrie. perhaps the gun needs to get a good cleaning. the plated bullets ive shot at higher velocities ( 40gr of powder/42 gr of powder) and never had this problem.

 

[Brutus]

With 9.3's suggestions, I would take a very critical look at your barrel/projectile dimensions.

Hope you resolve it.....

 

[serbinator]

ill clean the barrel well tonight and take measurements and see whats going on.

 

[PitBull1973]

I think its sh!t ammo.

 

[LUTNIT]

The fact that those marks are only on 5-6 of the holes makes me really curious.
Any chance the Norinco bullets were mispackaged tracers by accident and just hadn't fully ignited yet? From my understanding most modern tracers don't ignite in the barrel; they ignite after 25-75yds. Bit of a stretch but just thinking with my keyboard.
It does look like marks from powder but I can't see it being that close to the bullet impact and that tightly concentrated at 25yds. It should have dissipated to several feet at least after 25yds. It would have to be something coming off the bullet itself at that range.

Could try again but fire the different loads at different targets and see where the marks show up.

 

[Brutus]

Hopefully it is out-of-spec ammo. For the rifle only, one would require pin gauges. And looking at a land to land measurement of .300-.302. And .308 for the groove measurement. Apparently .304 land to land would expose a a bad rifle bore.

info

 

[yomomma]

IIRC tracers ignite at about 100 yards

 

[Brutus]

IIRC tracers ignite at about 100 yards

I thought they ignite sooner. Just our eyes cannot pick that up until 100?

 

[yomomma]

I don't know for sure myself....shot a handfull once at 50 yards never seen a thing. My only experience with them

It runs the gambit. We are all right.

NATO 7.62mm M62 Tracer ignites at approx. 100 meters from the muzzle. The .30-06 tracer M1 ignited before leaving the muzzle and the M25 ignited at 75 yards. S

 

[Ganderite]

All rifle bullets yaw initially. 25 is very close. Should be round holes at 100.

 

[Juster]

Similar thread on ar15:
ht tp://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/374581_Odd_Swirls_on_target____.html

I suppose the melted lead theory is plausible.
Also http://w ww.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138963&sid=e2437422057dd46bf50137f8bfc8a166&view=print:

 

[just having some fun]

Something to think about
you are shooting Cast (plated) bullets at near /at max velocity for a jacketed round

Some of it looks like jacket splatter(plated bullet) and some of it looks like lead splatter /spray

the plated lead rounds some times have the copper peel off

I have picked up plated pcs that have fallen off bullets

 

[223762]

The fact that those marks are only on 5-6 of the holes makes me really curious.
Any chance the Norinco bullets were mispackaged tracers by accident and just hadn't fully ignited yet? From my understanding most modern tracers don't ignite in the barrel; they ignite after 25-75yds. Bit of a stretch but just thinking with my keyboard.
It does look like marks from powder but I can't see it being that close to the bullet impact and that tightly concentrated at 25yds. It should have dissipated to several feet at least after 25yds. It would have to be something coming off the bullet itself at that range.

Could try again but fire the different loads at different targets and see where the marks show up.

this is exactly what i was thinking. quite an odd burn mark and an odd keyhole to.

 

[serbinator]

Hopefully it is out-of-spec ammo. For the rifle only, one would require pin gauges. And looking at a land to land measurement of .300-.302. And .308 for the groove measurement. Apparently .304 land to land would expose a a bad rifle bore.

info

the barrel is a brand new criterion barrel with less then 400 rounds through it.

IIRC tracers ignite at about 100 yards

i have no tracers, the norinco ammo i pulled were all verified to be FMJ BT bullets. I then dropped the amount of powder to exactly 37 grains.

All rifle bullets yaw initially. 25 is very close. Should be round holes at 100.

i did not know about the initial yaw.. i shot the rifle earlier this week with faster norinco and faster frontier bullet speeds ( i was loading 39&40 grains of H4895 in my brass with the frontier bullets) and it did not leave any markings like it did this morning.

Similar thread on ar15:
ht tp://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/374581_Odd_Swirls_on_target____.html

I suppose the melted lead theory is plausible.
Also http://w ww.surplusrifleforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=138963&sid=e2437422057dd46bf50137f8bfc8a166&view=print:

my game plan now is :

1. create 16 rounds using PPU brass with CCI magnum primers and 37gr of H4895.

2. pull 16 rounds of norinco surplus and drop powder to 37 grains.

3. See #1 but with 39gr of H4895.

i spent a good 2 hours taking apart the gun fully and removing all old grease and fouling and cleaned it up real nice.

separate targets for each.. i will benchrest shoot at full 50 yards. what i am thinking might have happened is that the barrel might have gotten so dirty that the plating on the frontier bullets eroded faster and that the lead core started disintegrating as it left the barrel. Earlier in the week when i shot the frontier projectiles it performed fine without any problems. Frontier themselves stated that their plated bullets can handle full power 308 spec loads. Another thing to mention is that when i shoot the norinco ammo there is a lot of fouling on the case itself which im guessing to the fact that it is steel case and isnt sealing as well as the brass cases.

also if anyone is curious this is a picture of the frontier bullets below

\

 

[LUTNIT]

Disintegrating/crumbling lead? Possibly.
Melting lead? No way.

Check different ranges. Maybe 50 and 100yds; see if the marks still show up.
I find it odd that the lead would disintegrate and leave a pattern like that. Wouldn't it be more common with the large number of cast bullet shooters out there?
Some guys on the other forums that Juster posted links to said they got a pattern like that on the target with closed base jacketed (not plated) bullets. Hornady 75gr .224" bullets.

Maybe we wont know unless someone happens to have a high speed camera that they'll let you shoot dangerously close to.