infideleggwelder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
what is the difference between Mk III* and Mk III? does the * denote later date of manufacture or location?
what is the difference between Mk III* and Mk III.
- Thread starter infideleggwelder
- Start date
Mk.III has a slot on the right side of the receiver for a magazine cutoff. The Mk.III* eliminated it. Mk.III wood is scalloped lower leaving room for the slot however it's not uncommon to see Mk.III wood on Mk.III* rifles and Mk.III* wood on Mk.III rifles that have had the cutoff removed. Mk.III* are typically late WW1 (1917-18 manufacture) as a war economy measure. Post WW1 and up to 1939 they reverted back to making Mk.III's with the slot.
infideleggwelder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
i have a Mk III* 1942. no slot, but glad to know mk III wood will work
Oh, there was such a lot of futzing around that it wasn't even funny at times.
Mark III was the standard at the beginning of the Great War. As the War went on and more and more rifles were needed, they looked for ways to make them faster. So, off came the volley sights. The cocking-piece was changed from the early round type to the later flat type. The cutoffs came off. The adjustable rear sight leaf was changed for one with the sight pinned solid. This all happened sort of piecemeal, but finally was standardised... Mark III would have the cutoff, Mark III* would not, the changeover would take place as parts were exhausted for the Mark III. Volley sight would be discontinued. Woodwork would be made to suit the rifle in production. All rear sights would be the pinned type.
Once the War was over, they went back to the Mark III rifle. Many Mark III* rifles had the cutoff slots, so these were rebuilt to Mark III specs, cutoffs installed and the * barred out. These are termed the "Mark 3 Bar" rifles.
Then the Army changed its mind again...... and all the cutoffs were removed just shortly before War Two and the standard became the Mark III*...... and so the Mark IIIs which had become Mark III*s and then had become Mark III Bars went back again to Mark III*.
Fortunately, London Small Arms never produced the Mark III*, just the Mark III...... and they were out of business before the Second War started, so all of their rifles ought to be Mark IIIs. Or, at least, that's how they STARTED.
It's all an unholy mess, but that's part of what makes this hobby so interesting.
Do have fun!
Mark III was the standard at the beginning of the Great War. As the War went on and more and more rifles were needed, they looked for ways to make them faster. So, off came the volley sights. The cocking-piece was changed from the early round type to the later flat type. The cutoffs came off. The adjustable rear sight leaf was changed for one with the sight pinned solid. This all happened sort of piecemeal, but finally was standardised... Mark III would have the cutoff, Mark III* would not, the changeover would take place as parts were exhausted for the Mark III. Volley sight would be discontinued. Woodwork would be made to suit the rifle in production. All rear sights would be the pinned type.
Once the War was over, they went back to the Mark III rifle. Many Mark III* rifles had the cutoff slots, so these were rebuilt to Mark III specs, cutoffs installed and the * barred out. These are termed the "Mark 3 Bar" rifles.
Then the Army changed its mind again...... and all the cutoffs were removed just shortly before War Two and the standard became the Mark III*...... and so the Mark IIIs which had become Mark III*s and then had become Mark III Bars went back again to Mark III*.
Fortunately, London Small Arms never produced the Mark III*, just the Mark III...... and they were out of business before the Second War started, so all of their rifles ought to be Mark IIIs. Or, at least, that's how they STARTED.
It's all an unholy mess, but that's part of what makes this hobby so interesting.
Do have fun!
The difference between a MkIII & a MkIII* is the cutoff & the cutoff only.
The LoC of 1916 (List of Chances) is in 2 parts
Part 1 contained the changes to the future production of the MkIII note "FUTURE PRODUCTION"
Part 2 was the introduction of the MkIII*.
In both parts of the LoC the words "may embody" appear relating to the changes listed in part 1 of the LoC, this means either rifle can be made with or without the parts mentioned in the changes, so these part are NOT model specific.
The change in cocking piece came after the 1916 LoC & applies to both the MkIII & MkIII*
LSA finished SMLE production in 1918 & was producing the MkIII* they only produced the MkIII* in 1918 and are scarce.
The LoC of 1916 (List of Chances) is in 2 parts
Part 1 contained the changes to the future production of the MkIII note "FUTURE PRODUCTION"
Part 2 was the introduction of the MkIII*.
In both parts of the LoC the words "may embody" appear relating to the changes listed in part 1 of the LoC, this means either rifle can be made with or without the parts mentioned in the changes, so these part are NOT model specific.
The change in cocking piece came after the 1916 LoC & applies to both the MkIII & MkIII*
LSA finished SMLE production in 1918 & was producing the MkIII* they only produced the MkIII* in 1918 and are scarce.
Well posted 5thBATT.
There are so many misconceptions about the differences between the III and III*. In fact the first III* rifles seem to have appeared about December 1915 as the L0C Paragraphs were always some months (or even years) behind actual production.
Regards
TonyE
There are so many misconceptions about the differences between the III and III*. In fact the first III* rifles seem to have appeared about December 1915 as the L0C Paragraphs were always some months (or even years) behind actual production.
Regards
TonyE
infideleggwelder
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
as i may or may not have said before, i hope to one day have half the knowledge and the willingness to share it about this stuff as a few of the guys on this forum. i have been an enfield fan for years but was just mostly confused by the plethora of almost identical rifles out there made under one name. now i can almost reasonably understand what a rifle is telling me. still lots to learn. (they mostly say "use me"). and there is so many to collect, even if you only get one of each.
much thanks
much thanks
Thank you, 5th BATT and TonyE.
The List of Changes is definitely The Last Word. It is also OFFICIAL.
But the fact remains that the rifles developed into the final form through the period of the Great War. Some were reverse-engineered AFTER the War, then brought up to III* spec AGAIN.
It WAS an unholy mess!
It also gave us a WONDERFUL variety of variants.
Thanks for the LSA III*. My information obviously was incorrect. Any LSAs I have run into (not many, 'way out here) are marked III only.
The List of Changes is definitely The Last Word. It is also OFFICIAL.
But the fact remains that the rifles developed into the final form through the period of the Great War. Some were reverse-engineered AFTER the War, then brought up to III* spec AGAIN.
It WAS an unholy mess!
It also gave us a WONDERFUL variety of variants.
Thanks for the LSA III*. My information obviously was incorrect. Any LSAs I have run into (not many, 'way out here) are marked III only.
True. One of my rifles is an Enfield 1918 Mark III* which must have gone to an Indian Division during the war and gone home with them. It was reworked to a Mark III with cut off and windage sights in 1926 and in WW2 must have gone to Burma and the Australians as it had a new Lithgow barrel in February 1944. It stayed that way and came home to me in the UK a few years ago. It is an extremely accurate rifle that I use regularly in vintage shoots.
Regards
TonyE
Its only an "unholy mess" if people continue to think MkIII parts/MkIII* parts, there is no such rifle as a MkIII* with MkIII parts or a MkIII with MkIII* parts, as i pointed out the LoC clearly states "MAY EMBODY" it is either a MkIII or a MkIII* dependent on the presence of a cutoff, so there is in fact only the one MkIII part & thats a cutoff, all other parts are for & can be used for either.
Forends, now before someones says "there is another MkIII part", yes we see low wall & high wall forends with the low wall giving clearance for the cutoff but these are not model specific parts, there were Armorer instructions for fitting a high wall forend to a MkIII with cutoff & it was not...find the correct pattern or remove the cutoff, it was modify the forend, plus it should be pointed out Lithgow used the low wall forend though its entire production on both MkIIIs & MkIII* right up to the end so if you have a Lithgow with a high wall, the wood has been replaced with a non Lithgow forend.
1915 MkIII*s yep some MkIII*s were produced before the LoC of 1916 & those who produced them were warned their rifles could be rejected if they continued to do so, now the question is..what parts were used? now i have seen & held in my hands a 1915 BSA MkIII* with no cutoff or slot with a forend complete with Volley sights that was numbered to the rifle, it would seem these rifles most likely differed to the early MkIIIs in only missing the cutoff & slot & may be the reason behind the actual wording of the LoC in a bid to tidy things up but don't hold me to that, its just my take on things, it could have been worded that way just so parts already in the system to be used up, or both.
Ironically, the original specs for the MkIII* did not include the absence of the cutoff, just the changes that were listed in part 1 of the LoC so what we consider a post WW1 MkIII was in fact going to be the MkIII* pattern.
ETA the MkIII was manufactured up to & including 1941 mainly by Lithgow but recently a MkIII no star with slot (cutoff missing) Dispersal rifle has turned up.
Will see if i can find the thread, it was on Gunboards.
Here it is, a 1940 not 1941 though
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...info-facts-about-it!&highlight=1941+Dispersal
Forends, now before someones says "there is another MkIII part", yes we see low wall & high wall forends with the low wall giving clearance for the cutoff but these are not model specific parts, there were Armorer instructions for fitting a high wall forend to a MkIII with cutoff & it was not...find the correct pattern or remove the cutoff, it was modify the forend, plus it should be pointed out Lithgow used the low wall forend though its entire production on both MkIIIs & MkIII* right up to the end so if you have a Lithgow with a high wall, the wood has been replaced with a non Lithgow forend.
1915 MkIII*s yep some MkIII*s were produced before the LoC of 1916 & those who produced them were warned their rifles could be rejected if they continued to do so, now the question is..what parts were used? now i have seen & held in my hands a 1915 BSA MkIII* with no cutoff or slot with a forend complete with Volley sights that was numbered to the rifle, it would seem these rifles most likely differed to the early MkIIIs in only missing the cutoff & slot & may be the reason behind the actual wording of the LoC in a bid to tidy things up but don't hold me to that, its just my take on things, it could have been worded that way just so parts already in the system to be used up, or both.
Ironically, the original specs for the MkIII* did not include the absence of the cutoff, just the changes that were listed in part 1 of the LoC so what we consider a post WW1 MkIII was in fact going to be the MkIII* pattern.
ETA the MkIII was manufactured up to & including 1941 mainly by Lithgow but recently a MkIII no star with slot (cutoff missing) Dispersal rifle has turned up.
Will see if i can find the thread, it was on Gunboards.
Here it is, a 1940 not 1941 though
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthr...info-facts-about-it!&highlight=1941+Dispersal
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