Whats a good group...

TheCanuck

TheCanuck

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to you, for 3 rounds, on a table and no rear rest or sand bag, just a bi-pod?

I just got back from the range, for my second ever outing with my rifle, where i shot a .688 inch group at 100yards, using commercial Remington Premier Accutip in 165gr. The rifle is a 700P in .308. The weather was sunny, -10celsius and a wind of less than 4-5 mph.

I consider that not bad, but am not totally satisfied either. Maybe i'm being hard on myself, after watching all you guys post .25 and .3 moa groups.


So what's your idea of a good group?
 
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" Good Group " is a relative term IMHO.
Same as LRC states, ANY group is better than no group!:D
Even with a "big" group, you can look at it and maybe see what you did so you can make improve.
I prefer a bunch of .750 groups as opposed to three or for 1 inchers and the occasional .50, because consistancy is what matters .
Take care of every shot , putting all your concentration into it, and it should go where the others are already.
You can't do anything about the shot already made, or the shot after the one in the rifle.
The ONLY one that matters is the one you are about to make.
If your equipment is solid and in good shape, you will get there eventually.
'it is a road that never ends.......
Cat
 
I would say that

is pretty good shooting for off a bi-pod. You also have to remember that was with factory ammo. I am assuming it was with a stock factory gun? The small groups that people report can also be misleading. How well a gun shoots should not be based on how it shoots just "1" group but based on the guns agging capabilities of multiple groups.

You can almost be assured that a factory chambered gun will not agg consistently like a aftermarket gun. A Rem 700 done up with careful smithing techniques and a good barrel should agg better than a stock rifle with the right loads. In turn a full blown custom should and will run circles around any factory or reworked factory.

For the average Joe it may not mean much but to the diehard accuracy person it means a lot.

I think what you got out of it is pretty darn good. Now go out and shoot 5more groups of 5 shots each and report back to us!
 
Don't worry about guys posting .25 and .3 moa groups....... they aren't doing it on a regular basis with factory rifles and factory ammo.

Three shot groups can be "lucky" small out of anything... the better test would be to shoot 5 - 5 shot groups in a row and take the average of the measurments. Then do the same thing next week..... that would be a much better indicator of what the rifle, ammo, and you really are capable of.

I once went to the range to sight my .280 Improved in.... it was pretty well sighted in, I just wanted to check it before goping hunting.... there was one other shooter there.... He watched me put my target up and then fire three shots and go pick up my target. It was a 1/4 inch group, two inches high of the bull.... he was very impressed.. so was I............ I had never shot a 1/4 inch group with that rifle before........... it never has again either. Usually 5/8's to 3/4".
 
I agree with both LRC and Cat, but must add some.
3 round groups don't mean much to me. There are not too many matches that I know of that are only 3 rounds. 10 round groups will tell you a better story about how the rifle will shoot as the match goes.
If your rifle starts off shooting 3 rounds on top of each other then opens to 2-3 inches for the 7-10 rounds, your first 3 don't mean squat.

You are off the a good start, and with more practice this will improve.
Get yourself some reloading gear and fine tune a load that will work even better in your rifle. Use a rear bag, even an old sock full of kitty litter is better then nothing.
 
I actually don't put any stock into 3 shot groups, except for sa hunting rifle, mainly because things change in the field!
When training , I pick up every target, then superimpose the groups from every range, and that gives me a very good indicator of how I am doing for the day.
This a the biggest reason that I don't like to shoot steel instead of paper target.

Gongs are fun, but give you little indication of just how you are doing.

Cat
 
Three shot groups are probably acceptable for testing the zero of a hunting rifle, but tell little about the accuracy potential of a rifle. A series of groups will probably paint a more attractive picture of a rifle's potential that a single group with the same number of rounds. Superimpose 5x5shot groups, and the aggregate is going to be larger than any single group. Here's a thought: suppose that you took a benchrest rifle of known ability, lets say it could average an honest .3, with no single group over .4. Line up 10 average shooters who just happened to be at the range. What sort of groups do you think you would see?
 
tiriaq said:
Three shot groups are probably acceptable for testing the zero of a hunting rifle, but tell little about the accuracy potential of a rifle. A series of groups will probably paint a more attractive picture of a rifle's potential that a single group with the same number of rounds. Superimpose 5x5shot groups, and the aggregate is going to be larger than any single group. Here's a thought: suppose that you took a benchrest rifle of known ability, lets say it could average an honest .3, with no single group over .4. Line up 10 average shooters who just happened to be at the range. What sort of groups do you think you would see?
Click to expand...
You may find that the groups are very tight, but i'd lay money down that they wiuld not all be in the same spot on the target!:D
Cat
 
The type of targets you shoot at may affect groups also, I have a hell of a time centering up on round black bullseye's, and getting a tight sub moa group, using a diamond shape where you can align your scope posts on the horizontal and vertical and get good consistancy these are where i get my best groups or a small circle, The smaller the target the easier it is to focus and concentrate on the same point for groups. I basicly use targets to see what me and my rifle can do at different ranges but take my greatest pleasure of spanking items of various sizes at various ranges. Small Pumpkins filled with died water at 1000 are awsome to see, along with other Bio degradeable fruits, hit with a large caliber puts a whole new smile on long range shooting. Clay pigeons, apples are all economical boi-degradeable targets and a hoot to shoot, and when I do some of my best shooting.:)
 
Groups

Long Range Canuck said:
The type of targets you shoot at may affect groups also, I have a hell of a time centering up on round black bullseye's, and getting a tight sub moa group, using a diamond shape where you can align your scope posts on the horizontal and vertical and get good consistancy these are where i get my best groups or a small circle, The smaller the target the easier it is to focus and concentrate on the same point for groups. I basicly use targets to see what me and my rifle can do at different ranges but take my greatest pleasure of spanking items of various sizes at various ranges. Small Pumpkins filled with died water at 1000 are awsome to see, along with other Bio degradeable fruits, hit with a large caliber puts a whole new smile on long range shooting. Clay pigeons, apples are all economical boi-degradeable targets and a hoot to shoot, and when I do some of my best shooting.:)
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly. My current favorite is small Macintosh apples. Hanging from a string at 200 yards, add a bit of a wind and you have a small swinging target that will teach you a lot of humility
 
I use 5 shot groups and shoot at least 5 groups and then take the agg of the groups and that gives me a pretty good idea of what that particular load will do. Sometimes I'll use 3 shot groups with light barrelled guns that heat up quick, set them aside, shoot another rifle or two in rotation and then shoot 3 more shots at the same target so in effect they're 6 shot groups with a little intermission for cooling between each 3 shots, sometimes they turn into 9 or 12 or 15+ shot groups. If you can shoot 15 shots into a half inch you really got something! If your really trying to get good groups you need to concentrate on shooting posture, technique, hold, gun position etc, make sure each and every shot is taken the same as the one before. Once you start getting small groups around half inch regularly in reasonable conditions, then its time to get windflags and further shrink groups if you can read the wind and understand its effect. A rifle that will shoot into the .1's and .2's in ideal conditions with no wind will shoot in the .3's to .7's with a light wind and no windflags. If a guy tells you he has a rifle that will shoot every group into the .2's and .3's @100 yds. all day long ,day in and day out in any wind conditions is full of sh*t.

A small group by itself dosen't tell you much more than you happened to shoot a nice group, I've done that many times with rifles that generally shoot very poorly. Seen way too many guys go to the range with several different handloads of 3 shots each for working up a load, shoot them off and get one nice group out of the bunch and then and there decide that that particular load is the load for them and go home and roll up a hundred or so, when they get back to the range later they find out that the great load they developed wasn't so great and was a result of one of those lucky groups that turn up occasionally no matter what you shoot.
 
The guys above are giveing you all good information, accuracy depends on a lot of things, wether you're shooting a factory rifle or not. Straight chambers, most factory barrels are chambered with pilotless reamers, causeing some erratic results. There is also the ugly job of keeping the bbl and chamber clean from powder fouling and copper fouling. Then there is the factor of reloading equipment, straight dies or press, consistant powder and primer lots, consistant bullet jacket thicknesses. Decide what you consider acceptable groups and live with it, unless you're willing to spend a lot of money and still may not get what you want. There is also the question of paralax in your scope, oil in your action bedding, bedding screw tension and, and, and, and,,,,,,,, bearhunter
 
I think 3 shot groups are meaningless, lets just report 10 shot groups.
You can get an occasional "tight" 3-shot group with a slingshot.
 
Alright
I'll post 3 5shots groups next weekend when i go to the range. All this talk has got me thinking, so i'll start another thread about rear rests on the forum
 
Hi,

Personally, been able to shoot a .6" group at 100yds with factory ammo,.. well..... lets say I would be quite pleased with the rifle. :cool:

We try to achive these results by reloading and sometimes it's lots of try and test before finding the right combinaison. I am happy if I can shoot under 1-1 1/2" consistently for big game hunting so I find your .6" results pretty good.:)

That said, I have a 7MMremMag that can group nosler Ballistic Tip 140gr under .8"- 1" all the time and occasional 5 shots groups under .5" and .4" with reloads.:D
I don't regularly shoot past 100yds practicing but with that same rifle, I shot a moose past 250yds and a deer also in the same range without problems.

If you regularly shoot under 1" at 100yds, there shouldn't be any problems shooting and hitting the vitals at 200-250yds.

When I can hit a clay target from 150yds - 200yds regularly, for hunting purpose, I am a very happy man :D .
For others, who shoot competition, my results wouldn't stand a chance against them :eek: :eek: :eek:


Good luck

SORRY, Wrong section, thought I was in hunting one
.
 
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a few times in my life I've shot what I consider to be outstanding groups. My old 7mm Imperial Magnum at 500yds with a 10 shot group measuring just over 1.25 inch. I was coached and told when to shoot and it took over 45 minutes for those 10 shots, and that was my first good group. With my Sako TRG-22 I've shot 5 and 10 round groups at 300 that could be covered by a Loony, and at 100 I've shot 5 shot groups that looked like one 50 calibre hole. I've seen others shoot much better with my own gear though, and that is truly humbling. Watching good rifle shooters shoot, is one of the few things I can just stand around and watch, and when it's my own gear, it gives me more of a thrill, as I then know what the gun is capable of in a real shooters hands, not in my "shoot a couple times a year" hands.
 
Sandbag it or put it in a vice, shoot 5 rounds while letting the barrel cool between shots, and then see how it shoots. With a bipod and no rear rest, that's pretty darn good.

-Rohann
 
5 shots, 3 shots, 10 shots, all good for testing loads and accuracy/consistency. I have seen alot of guys who could shoot really small groups way off to the side of the bullseye (I have done that a few.... alright many times myself). Find a good load then work on getting all the bullets on target. Once you've established the accuracy potential groups don't really matter anymore. Like Cat said concentrate on each bullet, if ones of center don't put the next one right next to it, adjust and shoot again after all a bad group in the 10 ring beats an awesome group on the edge of the paper. Your group sounds great to me (bipod w/ no rear bag). Good shooting.

John
 
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