When and How to hot load safely?

bigbore14

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I am building a load for my Sako 300 win mag. So far, the hotter it gets using 7828ssc the tighter the group becomes. Using TSX 180 gr bullets I went up to 75 gr without any pressure signs. Can I keep going up? What should I be looking for? When should I stop? Max charge in the barnes manual #4 is 74 gr, the hodgdon website says this:

180 GR. SPR MT-SP IMR 7828 .308" 3.285" minimum 73.0gr 2770fps 49,700 PSI Maximum 78.5C 3034fps 62,000 PSI

Now, should I just go with the barnes data and stop there? Can I interchage any 180 gr bullet and use the hodgdon data? Is the IMR 7828 the same as the IMR 7828SSC that I am using?

Thanks Again, misunderstanding D
 
Don't just interchange bullets without working up a load again... ESPECIALLY the TSX since it is a solid copper bullet.
 
I would say keep increasing the load- go up in maybe 0.3gr increments and see what happens. Eventually your load will start to spread out again, and watch for pressure signs. My Sako m75ss 300WM love RL22 (74.0gr)with 180gr Accubonds but my buddy with the same rifle didnt and we went up to 75.5gr. GOing to try 7828 or the SSC or the new Winchester Supreme 780 powder-its whats used in their 300WM Accubond ammo for his. My COAL is longer than the SPEC'd one and still fits in my clip.

My 300WM and 270WSM grouped awesome with the Accubonds I never loaded any with the TSX and traded off the TSX's for both calibers for Accubonds. I did however load 225gr TTSX's for my Sako m75 Greywolf 338-06AI - shot decently so far as I'm breaking in the barrel and fireforming the brass.
 
Hot loading

First off, if you have only read the few pages in the manual that describes your loading data for that particular cartridge, you have only read about a tenth of what you should have. Look at the beggining of your manuals and most will show signs of pressure and what to look for when loads become too hot.

You can increase your loads but only if you are not seeing signs of pressure. Make sure you know what you are doing and looking for before proceeding. Read up on this and educate yourself or you will find the downfalls of loading hot.

Greg
 
First off, if you have only read the few pages in the manual that describes your loading data for that particular cartridge, you have only read about a tenth of what you should have. Look at the beggining of your manuals and most will show signs of pressure and what to look for when loads become too hot.

You can increase your loads but only if you are not seeing signs of pressure. Make sure you know what you are doing and looking for before proceeding. Read up on this and educate yourself or you will find the downfalls of loading hot.

Greg

I have read the whole reloading section but they never tell you its okay to go past the maximum load. What I am asking is will I see signs of pressure on the cases, and shot, or is there a hard and fast rule to stop at? Eg. Speed, some way to measure pressure, 3 gr over maximum load.
 
Get a chrony first of all, it provides very useful data. You can be well overpressure and not show signs. Until your gun explodes anyway.
 
With my Savage in 300wsm I find that I get "Book" max speed before I get to the max grains for most loads that I've done. I have kept working my way up to the max load, but in most cases I get very little gain in Velocity for the extra powder I add, and as often as not start having the pressure signs of primer flattening, slightly tighter bolt lift etc. just before the max.
 
Use a chronograph. If you are not getting listed velocities, and you don't have any pressure signs, you can increase until you get one or the other.

Even if you don't have any pressure signs, once you have obtained listed velocities, i'ts time to stop....

Going over max without a chrono is flying blind.
 
I always watch for pressure signs such as resistance on lifting the bolt after firing,but even if I see no such signs while developing a load,I still don't accept any load with out one more test.My final test for any load is to load up five cartridges using brand new brass,and shoot them in the warmest temperature that I intend to ever shoot that load.Then I reload and shoot those same five brass cases and shoot them four more times.If the primer pockets are still tight after five loadings,I consider the load safe in my gun with that lot of brass.If the primer pockets are loose after five firings,I reduce the powder charge.
In some cases you can safely exceed the velocities posted in the manuals,and in some cases,you can't safely achieve the published velocities.
 
I have read the whole reloading section but they never tell you its okay to go past the maximum load. What I am asking is will I see signs of pressure on the cases, and shot, or is there a hard and fast rule to stop at? Eg. Speed, some way to measure pressure, 3 gr over maximum load.


Follow the reloading manuals. Loading over max doesn't always equal faster velocities only higher pressure which will only shorten the life of the rifle or the shooter. I believe every reloader goes through the speed demon phase but will eventually settle down for loads that are accurate versus screamin' fast.
 
300's

My experience 300winmag's seem to like the stiffer end of the scale. That being said, I wouldn't go over manual maximums. Life's too short.
Instead of going hotter or changing bullets I'd suggest trying different powders. Namely IMR 4350 or IMR 4831, and especially IMR 4350. Did I mention IMR 4350?:D
 
Interesting question and replies.
A max load is spoken of so much, yet it is such an illusive thing. Who's max load?
For as long as I can remember, a 180 grain bullet in loaded 30-06 ammunition, is always shown as giving 2700 fps, regardless who makes the ammo. Unless they have greatly changed in the last few years, most loaded ammo will give in the neighborhood of 2550 fps, 180 grain bullet, 30-06.
I have tested two 30-06 rifles, one a Remington 30 Express, with a new 24" barrel. The other is a Swede with a 24" barrel. In every load tested, the Remmie always gives about 75 more fps than does the Swede. Yet, I can safely load the Swede to actually higher velocity, than the Remington will give, with a grain or two more in the Swede.
Loading books are the same, always giving 2700 fps for the 180, 30-06. I saw one loading book that showed 54 grains of 4350 as giving the 2700 fps. I tested 56 grains of 4350 in the Remington, which always gices the best velocity, and it averaged 2574, over the Oehler 33! So what did their load of 54 grains give? Probably a doubtful 2475, a far cry from 2700, but that was their maximum load! If this was the book you went by, and never exceeded their max load, you would have a very feeble 30-06, would you not?
I load very similar to the way Stubblejumper described. I take my loading outfit to the range and load as I shoot. I use the same case over and over. with a slow powder like 4350 and a bottle neck case, I don't see any point in making the increments less than one grain. Thus, I load a cartridge with a charge I know is safe and fire it. Then in the same case, I load one more grain of powder. Shoot, look for all signs of pressure. First, carefully note the pressure require on the bolt handle to lift it. Then the primer exam, but primers are not a very good method of determing pressure, because of the variance in primers. Look at the case head to see if there are marks from the bolt face, which would indicate high pressure. Look at the case head to see if it has a shiny ring near the outer rim. If it is shiny it means the case was stuck in the chamber and the bolt rotated a bit before the case came loose. Case sticking, high pressure.
Then, the final test. I seat a primer in the fired case, while taking careful note of the pressure required to seat it. If it goes in easy, or easier than it did the time before, then your safe pressure was exceeded, and the primer pocket was enlarged.
I will now drop back a bit, and that is my maximum load. As a point of interest, the load I settled on after doing this, gave an average velocity of 2810 fps. No, I will not say how much 4350 it took to accomplish that, but I have a safe load which I have used extensively, and also have a peppy 30-06.
That safe load in the Swede will stick the bolt on the Remington.
I have said this on these postings before, but I think it is worth repeating, to show how a well bedded and tweaked rifle, will shoot virtually any ammo accurately.
While I was working this load up in my well tuned Swede, I fired five loads, with the fifth load having 4 grains more of powder, than the first load. When I looked at my target at 100 yards, the five shots, each with a grain of powder different than another, made a group of 1¼ inches!
 
I load very similar to the way Stubblejumper described. I take my loading outfit to the range and load as I shoot. I use the same case over and over. with a slow powder like 4350 and a bottle neck case, I don't see any point in making the increments less than one grain. Thus, I load a cartridge with a charge I know is safe and fire it. Then in the same case, I load one more grain of powder. Shoot, look for all signs of pressure. First, carefully note the pressure require on the bolt handle to lift it. Then the primer exam, but primers are not a very good method of determing pressure, because of the variance in primers. Look at the case head to see if there are marks from the bolt face, which would indicate high pressure. Look at the case head to see if it has a shiny ring near the outer rim. If it is shiny it means the case was stuck in the chamber and the bolt rotated a bit before the case came loose. Case sticking, high pressure.
Then, the final test. I seat a primer in the fired case, while taking careful note of the pressure required to seat it. If it goes in easy, or easier than it did the time before, then your safe pressure was exceeded, and the primer pocket was enlarged.

Actually your method is quite different than my own,in that I use five brand new pieces of brass and fire each one five times to see if there is any change in the primer pocket tension.I start with new brass,because I find that as the brass is exposed to firings,it expands less and less with each firing,even if the same load is used each time.I use five cases to compensate for variances in cases and primers.I load and fire each piece of brass five times,because the effect is cumulative,and you won't always notice a difference in a single firing.If you do see a significant difference with a single firing,the load was way too hot,not just a little too hot.
 
Stub said: I load and fire each piece of brass five times,because the effect is cumulative,and you won't always notice a difference in a single firing.If you do see a significant difference with a single firing,the load was way too hot,not just a little too hot.


Read my piece again. I plainly said I fired five times with the same brass case, with each shot having one more grain of powder than the one before it. Don't you think I know there is a cumulative effect on primer swelling?
I had a new case to start with, also, for the same reason.
The one case was just to get an idea of amount, then multiple cases were fired, to see if the original amount was OK.
Please give credit for knowing the basic facts about such things. If I was writing a book, I would give every detail, but on these postings one is a bit limited and people must realize that.
I'm sorry I used your posting as a reference. I only did so because you were using primer pocket swelling as critaria, and so was I.
 
Read my piece again. I plainly said I fired five times with the same brass case, with each shot having one more grain of powder than the one before it. Don't you think I know there is a cumulative effect on primer swelling?

I use the same load for each of the five firings so that I am actually testing only one load to see if that load is safe in my rifle.By adding more powder with each firing,you are only using one firing for each load.I don't feel that one firing is adequate to judge the primer pocket expansion.
 
"...Max charge in the barnes manual #4 is 74 gr..." That's where you stop. Barnes TSX bullets require Barnes data. They're solid copper. You can't just load for the weight with them.
 
Max loads

Interesting question and replies.
A max load is spoken of so much, yet it is such an illusive thing. Who's max load?
For as long as I can remember, a 180 grain bullet in loaded 30-06 ammunition, is always shown as giving 2700 fps, regardless who makes the ammo. Unless they have greatly changed in the last few years, most loaded ammo will give in the neighborhood of 2550 fps, 180 grain bullet, 30-06.
I have tested two 30-06 rifles, one a Remington 30 Express, with a new 24" barrel. The other is a Swede with a 24" barrel. In every load tested, the Remmie always gives about 75 more fps than does the Swede. Yet, I can safely load the Swede to actually higher velocity, than the Remington will give, with a grain or two more in the Swede.
Loading books are the same, always giving 2700 fps for the 180, 30-06. I saw one loading book that showed 54 grains of 4350 as giving the 2700 fps. I tested 56 grains of 4350 in the Remington, which always gices the best velocity, and it averaged 2574, over the Oehler 33! So what did their load of 54 grains give? Probably a doubtful 2475, a far cry from 2700, but that was their maximum load! If this was the book you went by, and never exceeded their max load, you would have a very feeble 30-06, would you not?
I load very similar to the way Stubblejumper described. I take my loading outfit to the range and load as I shoot. I use the same case over and over. with a slow powder like 4350 and a bottle neck case, I don't see any point in making the increments less than one grain. Thus, I load a cartridge with a charge I know is safe and fire it. Then in the same case, I load one more grain of powder. Shoot, look for all signs of pressure. First, carefully note the pressure require on the bolt handle to lift it. Then the primer exam, but primers are not a very good method of determing pressure, because of the variance in primers. Look at the case head to see if there are marks from the bolt face, which would indicate high pressure. Look at the case head to see if it has a shiny ring near the outer rim. If it is shiny it means the case was stuck in the chamber and the bolt rotated a bit before the case came loose. Case sticking, high pressure.
Then, the final test. I seat a primer in the fired case, while taking careful note of the pressure required to seat it. If it goes in easy, or easier than it did the time before, then your safe pressure was exceeded, and the primer pocket was enlarged.
I will now drop back a bit, and that is my maximum load. As a point of interest, the load I settled on after doing this, gave an average velocity of 2810 fps. No, I will not say how much 4350 it took to accomplish that, but I have a safe load which I have used extensively, and also have a peppy 30-06.
That safe load in the Swede will stick the bolt on the Remington.
I have said this on these postings before, but I think it is worth repeating, to show how a well bedded and tweaked rifle, will shoot virtually any ammo accurately.
While I was working this load up in my well tuned Swede, I fired five loads, with the fifth load having 4 grains more of powder, than the first load. When I looked at my target at 100 yards, the five shots, each with a grain of powder different than another, made a group of 1¼ inches!

This is what I was trying to get the op to realize without having enough time to say it. The numbers on the few pages of your caliber are really just guidelines. There are so many variables when it comes to reloading and max loads/pressure. Each rifle and each component is unique. Just because it the book says that you can do something doesn't mean you can achieve it safely.

Read the beginning of the book that describes pressure signs and reread it, then read it again so you fully understand and then get on the net and research it so you really have your head around it and what it looks like. Just like everyone always says, you can't learn everything from a book, read it and then experience it by looking at the signs your firearm is giving you and then you will understand where max loads are for your firearm.

Greg
 
I'll try again. I take one case, load and fire it. Then take the same case, load and fire it. I go up one grain at a time, with each firing. In the instance I was referring to, I fired the case five times, with one more grain of powder in each firing.
The case was fired five times.
Actually, it wasn't the primer pocket swelling that stopped my progression, but in this case the bolt was sticking, indicating too much pressure.
I then dropped back on the powder and kept trying the resulting load with numerous brass cases, until I was satisfied with the load.
I did not have an over, or dangerous load in my Husqvarna rifle. But a reading of over 2800 fps is a good load for a 30-06 with 180 grain bullets.
Compare this to well under 2500 fps, as I found as a maximum load in a loading book, with the same powder, as described in my first posting.
As an aside, I don't think I could be considered a "speed demon," or going through a "speed craze." My brass cases last for something like 20 firings, then end their useful life by developing cracks in the neck, and not from swelled primer pockets.
 
I'll try again. I take one case, load and fire it. Then take the same case, load and fire it. I go up one grain at a time, with each firing. In the instance I was referring to, I fired the case five times, with one more grain of powder in each firing.
The case was fired five times.

The case was fired five times in total,but only once with each powder charge.As such,you have only a single firing of a single case to judge each load by instead of my five cases x five loadings.
 
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