Where to go from here?

[wallz]

Kinda stumped on which route to take from here. Ran a bunch of seating depth groups tonight and they seem to be random, and some nice groups, but crazy ES, DS numbers. Dead calm, but warm out at around 29deg Celsius. I was running a barrel fan between 5 round groups, but not waiting for total cool down between rounds, and the last 2 groups I ran out of power on the fan and just ran it hot.

100m test from a bench using a front caldwell BR rest and rear bag. 223 cal, 17" stainless IBI barrel with 1-7 twist, sitting in a rem 783 receiver and MDT LS1 alum chassis. Shooting Berger 75 gr vld target in starline brass that is on its second firing. Annealed and full sized without sizing ball, and ran though with an expander mandrel. Using CFE223 with cci450 primers.
Previous to this I was running varget with about 200 fps faster, but no better groups, or ES, DS numbers. I'll post some of those pics as well.

Trying to set it up to shoot proper out to 1000m for my daughter, as she struggles with the 6.5 CM recoil. The CM is a heavy bench rifle around 16 lbs, but running 139 gr scenars at 2850fps from a 26" barrel, so she doesn't like the recoil.

We ran it a few weeks back with the varget and she was doing awesome out to 500 m, with nice groups on steel that were in the 3-5" range. We didn't actually go measure, but I have it on video. We worked out to 1000m and while she was making hits the shot radius just go too big to be of any real use. Hence the mission to get smaller groups, and better ES, SD numbers.

Don't know why they are all on the side, but oh well.



Bottom Center group measures .519", top right measures .479", and centre left measures .592"


next two groups it was a fairly windy day, and cross wind.


INteresting when I take out that one outlier shot the smaller es and ds numbers as listed.

 

[wallz]

some more updates: Went out on the 4th and tried the what I thought better loads from all the previous loadings I had that I thought had promise.







Then I thought, why the groups are growing from the last time with these exact loads. Now I understand that a 5 shot group is by no means a tell tail, but it should paint a decent picture of things. I noticed that these were opening up from the last time I shot these loads.


So I figured I have a dirty barrel and should start there. I gave it an IOSSO scrubbing, then pulled out my bore scope, then scrubbed it again, for 3 or so scrubbings. I noticed a carbon ring that was not really cleaning up, so I hit that area specifically 2 more scrubbings. By scrubbings I mean apply iosso to brush, and run it 15 to 20 times, then add more iosso, scrub, then more iosso then scrub. Then clean up with hopes and dry patches as needed. This in my view is one scrubbing. I did three on the barrel then two more on the carbon ring.

Then loaded 5 shots for a clean barrel temper, then ran the two loadings from the previous sitting. Results follow. It is interesting the the ES and SD numbers are WAY down, but the groups are huge. Over 1"(that is 1" squares). Group one and group 3 are the same load, just one is on the cleaned bore. Group 3 has huge ES and SD, but is the same load as group 1.
I have been contemplating running a tuner on this rifle and happen to have one sitting on a 22 not being used, it went over to the 223. I'll load up 50 rounds of the 25.6 gr varget, 1.880" base to ogive load and report results after some more testing. I decided to run varget as it is cheaper, I have more, plus over 200 fps faster should give me better distance umph on steel.

 

[maynard]

With the .223 being such a small case the margin of error when loading becomes very small. So, I have to ask...what scale are you using? Does it weight to .1 gr or .02 gr? .1 being a tenth of a grain and .02 being two one hundredths of a grain.
Is your brass at least sorted by weight? (better if sorted by volume but who has time for that?) I sort my .308 brass by .5 gr and .223 by .3 gr. case weight, not volume.

Reducing your ES could be as simple as changing brands of primers.

 

[708fan]

If that Caldwell rest is like the one on the shelf in my garden shed that would be some of your vertical problem. Old blue jean legs cut up and stacked to the appropriate height full of beach sand will be an improvement. Damp sand is a more stable. I used to leave mine in the rain from time to time. That vertical stringing looks like inconsistent shoulder pressure if it’s not the rest. Inconsistent fore/aft Rear bag placement changes vertical as well. Easy to miss that one. Pieces of tape on the stock beside front and rear bag for placement perfection is good thing. Pounding stock to pack rear bag helps. Squeezing rear bag does not. Matt Kline, a former Williamsport 1k BR 10 shot group record holder, recommends cutting up rubber place mats from Walmart and spray glueing them to the underside of the rear bag so it stays put.
Going to side is wind, rear bag or rest not square or your hold has developed and you need the adjust the scope. POI wander happens. Track it. Adjust to it. Don’t fight it when it repeats like this. The feel of the recoil(shoulder pressure) and torque(trigger hand grip) must be recalled and repeated accurately or POI will change even though it looks like good POA.
FYI Less shoulder pressure or moving rear the bag back will shoot lower.
I’ll second sorting brass by weight.

Kinda stumped on which route to take from here. Ran a bunch of seating depth groups tonight and they seem to be random, and some nice groups, but crazy ES, DS numbers. Dead calm, but warm out at around 29deg Celsius. I was running a barrel fan between 5 round groups, but not waiting for total cool down between rounds, and the last 2 groups I ran out of power on the fan and just ran it hot.

100m test from a bench using a front caldwell BR rest and rear bag. 223 cal, 17" stainless IBI barrel with 1-7 twist, sitting in a rem 783 receiver and MDT LS1 alum chassis. Shooting Berger 75 gr vld target in starline brass that is on its second firing. Annealed and full sized without sizing ball, and ran though with an expander mandrel. Using CFE223 with cci450 primers.
Previous to this I was running varget with about 200 fps faster, but no better groups, or ES, DS numbers. I'll post some of those pics as well.

Trying to set it up to shoot proper out to 1000m for my daughter, as she struggles with the 6.5 CM recoil. The CM is a heavy bench rifle around 16 lbs, but running 139 gr scenars at 2850fps from a 26" barrel, so she doesn't like the recoil.

We ran it a few weeks back with the varget and she was doing awesome out to 500 m, with nice groups on steel that were in the 3-5" range. We didn't actually go measure, but I have it on video. We worked out to 1000m and while she was making hits the shot radius just go too big to be of any real use. Hence the mission to get smaller groups, and better ES, SD numbers.

Don't know why they are all on the side, but oh well.

View attachment 988780

Bottom Center group measures .519", top right measures .479", and centre left measures .592"
View attachment 988781

next two groups it was a fairly windy day, and cross wind.
View attachment 988783View attachment 988784View attachment 988785

INteresting when I take out that one outlier shot the smaller es and ds numbers as listed.
View attachment 988786

 

[Mysticprecision]

Using my 223 setup in a Rem 783, I can offer a few suggestions

- if still running the factory firing pin spring, swap in a WOLFF Rem 700SA std weight spring cut 1/2 to 3/4" shorter
- ball powders tend to offer larger chronie numbers vs stick powder... can still shoot accurately at distance but if you need small numbers, switch to stick powder
- based on my current 75gr ELDM loads and H4895, your Varget load is WAY hotter then where I am ... yes, I shoot regularly to the limits of the bullet. Yes, I have used Berger 75gr VLDs in the past but don't shoot them currently. Loads would be similar. Drop 3 grs in your varget load and work up in 0.1gr increments with the target at least 150yds away... 200yds and even 250yds is not too far. There is no reason you can't get 1/2 MOA at 300yds.
- start with 10 thou OFF the lands, use a scale that is 0.1gr accurate - beam or digi doesn't matter - just watch consistency and drift
- For best accuracy, properly bedding an action into any stock/chassis can pay big dividends.
- make sure nothing is loose in the optics dept
- a bag rider in the buttstock can be helpful for consistent tracking

No reason you can't get this combo to shoot but I think you are trying to push things beyond what the barrel wants to offer.

YMMV

Jerry

 

[wallz]

With the .223 being such a small case the margin of error when loading becomes very small. So, I have to ask...what scale are you using? Does it weight to .1 gr or .02 gr? .1 being a tenth of a grain and .02 being two one hundredths of a grain.
Is your brass at least sorted by weight? (better if sorted by volume but who has time for that?) I sort my .308 brass by .5 gr and .223 by .3 gr. case weight, not volume.

Reducing your ES could be as simple as changing brands of primers.

Never thought about sorting brass. Makes sense the smaller case to do that for consistency.

I'm using the RCBS M1000 beam scale. No problem with the 6.5 CM getting the numbers down and consistent, but he 223 has me scratching my head.

I have used the rem 7 1/2's for other rifles that I have had in 223 and the cci was always better in them. Maybe I'll have to try again on those in this rifle.

If that Caldwell rest is like the one on the shelf in my garden shed that would be some of your vertical problem. Old blue jean legs cut up and stacked to the appropriate height full of beach sand will be an improvement. Damp sand is a more stable. I used to leave mine in the rain from time to time. That vertical stringing looks like inconsistent shoulder pressure if it’s not the rest. Inconsistent fore/aft Rear bag placement changes vertical as well. Easy to miss that one. Pieces of tape on the stock beside front and rear bag for placement perfection is good thing. Pounding stock to pack rear bag helps. Squeezing rear bag does not. Matt Kline, a former Williamsport 1k BR 10 shot group record holder, recommends cutting up rubber place mats from Walmart and spray glueing them to the underside of the rear bag so it stays put.
Going to side is wind, rear bag or rest not square or your hold has developed and you need the adjust the scope. POI wander happens. Track it. Adjust to it. Don’t fight it when it repeats like this. The feel of the recoil(shoulder pressure) and torque(trigger hand grip) must be recalled and repeated accurately or POI will change even though it looks like good POA.
FYI Less shoulder pressure or moving rear the bag back will shoot lower.
I’ll second sorting brass by weight.

Never figured it could be the rest. I've been using it for over a year and never noticed that issue creaping in on other rifle set ups. Yes I can shoot small groups, and consistent ones, just not with that 223. I usually put down between 1-2K rounds a year, mostly on the 6.5CM.
I use this to read my groups: https://www.rifleshootermag.com/editorial/5-shot-group-shapes/454958

And was reading the vertical strings as "add a bit more powder". I guess it could be me on the stock as well. I truthfully just don't fully like the stock it is in right now and just can't get "real comfort" behind it. Could be a mental game as well that keeps throwing me off on that concept as well. I'll let me daughter shoot it a bit more and work her through load development, tuning with it and see if she can real it in a bit, plus that will be a great learning tool for her.

Using my 223 setup in a Rem 783, I can offer a few suggestions

- if still running the factory firing pin spring, swap in a WOLFF Rem 700SA std weight spring cut 1/2 to 3/4" shorter
- ball powders tend to offer larger chronie numbers vs stick powder... can still shoot accurately at distance but if you need small numbers, switch to stick powder
- based on my current 75gr ELDM loads and H4895, your Varget load is WAY hotter then where I am ... yes, I shoot regularly to the limits of the bullet. Yes, I have used Berger 75gr VLDs in the past but don't shoot them currently. Loads would be similar. Drop 3 grs in your varget load and work up in 0.1gr increments with the target at least 150yds away... 200yds and even 250yds is not too far. There is no reason you can't get 1/2 MOA at 300yds.
- start with 10 thou OFF the lands, use a scale that is 0.1gr accurate - beam or digi doesn't matter - just watch consistency and drift
- For best accuracy, properly bedding an action into any stock/chassis can pay big dividends.
- make sure nothing is loose in the optics dept
- a bag rider in the buttstock can be helpful for consistent tracking

No reason you can't get this combo to shoot but I think you are trying to push things beyond what the barrel wants to offer.

YMMV

Jerry

Yea, I already changed the stock spring on it. No luck getting any wolff springs in Canada at this time, so I cut down a rem 700 spring. I don't think it was wolff anyways.

I know I'm on the top end of the scale for that load, but not seeing any flattened primers though. Maybe I'll play again now with the cleaned barrel on the smaller charges, and try with the rem 7 1/2 primers and set up at 200 m.

Yea all the first things I look for right away is the base, rings and make sure things are proper there when I see something crazy.


Thanks guys for a bit of insight, and this gives me some things to think about and work with!