which one is better between 1" at 25yrds and 3" at 50yrds

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When we go down to the WilsonCombat's website,there is guarantee precision 1" at 25 yrds,while LesBaer offering 3" at 50yrds. which one is higher standard? (of course LesBaer could give you 1.5" at 50yrds if you don't mind paying additional 295 bucks:D )
 
Depends what you use the pistol for, and it's probably irelevant. If you're an NRA bullseye shooter 50 yds is vital, if you're an IPSC shooter probably less so. If you just go to the range a couple of times a month there's a good chance you can't shoot that well anyway so it's no big deal. Save the money on tightening the frame, rewelding the rails, handcutting the barrel lugs - and spend it on ammo and practice and training.
 
phatns2pid said:
I believe 1" at 25 yards would roughly translate to 2" at 50 yards, no?

Technically yes, but in the real world no, there are too many variables for it to be a simple linear relationship
 
Soli said:
Not even technically: it's exponential.

3" at 50 yards is better than 1" at 25...

Why do you say it is exponential? It is a simple linear trigonometric relationship. The key is to calculate the Minute Of Angle (M.O.A) for each. Convert 25 and 50 yards to inches (25X3X12=900", 50X3X12=1800"). Take the inverse tangent of 1/900 and 3/1800. These will be the angles in degrees (~0.06366 degrees for 25 yards and ~0.09549 for 50 yards). Convert to the M.O.A which is based on 1/60 of a degree (3.84 M.O.A for 25 yards and 5.76 M.O.A for 50 yards). As you see based on a common reference, 1" at 25 yards is better than 3" at 50 yards.
For precision rifles, 1" at 100 yards approximately corresponds to 1 M.O.A.
To show you that the relationship is linear, I calculate the grouping for 3.84 M.O.A at 50 yards. Take the tangent of 0.06366 degrees and multiply by 50 yards in inches (1800"). This yields 1.99993871 inches which is approximately 2" at 50 yards.
:)
 
Ironsight said:
Why do you say it is exponential? It is a simple linear trigonometric relationship. The key is to calculate the Minute Of Angle (M.O.A) for each. Convert 25 and 50 yards to inches (25X3X12=900", 50X3X12=1800"). Take the inverse tangent of 1/900 and 3/1800. These will be the angles in degrees (~0.06366 degrees for 25 yards and ~0.09549 for 50 yards). Convert to the M.O.A which is based on 1/60 of a degree (3.84 M.O.A for 25 yards and 5.76 M.O.A for 50 yards). As you see based on a common reference, 1" at 25 yards is better than 3" at 50 yards.
For precision rifles, 1" at 100 yards approximately corresponds to 1 M.O.A.
To show you that the relationship is linear, I calculate the grouping for 3.84 M.O.A at 50 yards. Take the tangent of 0.06366 degrees and multiply by 50 yards in inches (1800"). This yields 1.99993871 inches which is approximately 2" at 50 yards.
:)

You need some tail.
 
Ironsight said:
Why do you say it is exponential? It is a simple linear trigonometric relationship. The key is to calculate the Minute Of Angle (M.O.A) for each. Convert 25 and 50 yards to inches (25X3X12=900", 50X3X12=1800"). Take the inverse tangent of 1/900 and 3/1800. These will be the angles in degrees (~0.06366 degrees for 25 yards and ~0.09549 for 50 yards). Convert to the M.O.A which is based on 1/60 of a degree (3.84 M.O.A for 25 yards and 5.76 M.O.A for 50 yards). As you see based on a common reference, 1" at 25 yards is better than 3" at 50 yards.
For precision rifles, 1" at 100 yards approximately corresponds to 1 M.O.A.
To show you that the relationship is linear, I calculate the grouping for 3.84 M.O.A at 50 yards. Take the tangent of 0.06366 degrees and multiply by 50 yards in inches (1800"). This yields 1.99993871 inches which is approximately 2" at 50 yards.
:)
Say now I can shoot a 5 shot 1/2 inch grouping with my .308 at 100 yards. Can I shoot a 5 shot 5 inch grouping at 1000 yards? I highly doubt it. It's not a linear relationship.

-Rohann
 
Rohann said:
Say now I can shoot a 5 shot 1/2 inch grouping with my .308 at 100 yards. Can I shoot a 5 shot 5 inch grouping at 1000 yards? I highly doubt it. It's not a linear relationship.
Ummm... well it is. The impressive display of trigonometry (well, I was impressed, I don't remember any of that stuff), pretty well modelled it, I would think.

The real world brings in external factors such as bullet yaw, and whatnot that affect shot dispersal of a group. But if we ignore those, a handgun/bullet combination that shoots a 1" group at 25 yards would become a 2" group at 50 yards, a 3" group at 75 yards, etc, etc. The bullets leave a single point; their dispersal from the center point of the group is going to progress in a linear fashion as the distance increases (ignoring all the real world external influences like gravity).

Line up two pieces of paper, using a hole in the middle of the first one, at 25 and 50 yards with a laser clamped in a vice or some sort of stable rest. That will give you three precise points in a row; the laser and the exact center of the two sheets of paper. Then adjust the laser until it is illuminating 1" (or whatever distance you wish) off the center of the first piece of paper at 25 yards. Now remove the 25 yard sheet of paper and see what the distance is on the 50 meter paper from where the laser is illuminating to the center of the target. My money is on the measurement being twice that of the measurement at half the distance. Don't even have to remember your trigonometry...

All that aside, being an accuracy junky, if reliability and function remained the same, I'd pay the extra $300 or whatever it was for guaranteed 1.5" groups at 50 yards. That's cheap over the life of the gun, and eliminates one more variable when you're working on your form and technique. If my interest in attaining high levels of marksmanship really wasn't that great, I wouldn't buy any of the high end 1911's, but would instead simply buy a good solid gun with good sights and then start banging away.

My opinion only, of course.
 
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First of all, I am very sorry for the individuals that have no capacity to discuss a technical matter in a civilized manner and the only way that they know is to use that kind of implicit and inappropriate language to hijack a well-founded forum. I have reported that incidence as a rude post and hope that the moderators will do something about it.

Back to the topic, I never said that the trejectory of a projectile is a straight line (linear) but almost everyone knows that it is a parabola (non-linear but not exponential). Therefore, in order to hit the target the axis of gun barrel has to make a slight positive angle with the axis through the front and rear sights (the line of sight). Since, the axis of sights has to be optimized for different shooting ranges. For the 50 yard range this angle of compensation is more than what is required for the 25 yard range. The bullet trajectory once fired crosses the line of sight two times, once close to the muzzle and again close to the target. What I calculated was to extrapolate from 25 yards to 50 yards using a common frame of reference which is M.O.A again with a certain approximation that is very very close to linear for the transition from 25 to 50 yards (close distances not for 100 to 1000 yards). I was just trying to answer the initial question using a very simple mathematical linearization.
:)
 
lets not forget that as a bullet travels further and further, things that had little effect on it at close distances will now start to affect it more and more, so yes Rohann is pretty much correct in that it is not correct to assume your groups will be the same at 50 yds and 1000 or whatnot (MOA being the same, not actual size). Perhaps in a vacuum, with perfect levels of humidity and temperature etc (hmm would that be a vacuum then?).
 
Ironsight said:
First of all, I am very sorry for the individuals that have no capacity to discuss a technical matter in a civilized manner and the only way that they know is to use that kind of implicit and inappropriate language to hijack a well-founded forum. I have reported that incidence as a rude post and hope that the moderators will do something about it.

Back to the topic, I never said that the trejectory of a projectile is a straight line (linear) but almost everyone knows that it is a parabola (non-linear but not exponential). Therefore, in order to hit the target the axis of gun barrel has to make a slight positive angle with the axis through the front and rear sights (the line of sight). Since, the axis of sights has to be optimized for different shooting ranges. For the 50 yard range this angle of compensation is more than what is required for the 25 yard range. The bullet trajectory once fired crosses the line of sight two times, once close to the muzzle and again close to the target. What I calculated was to extrapolate from 25 yards to 50 yards using a common frame of reference which is M.O.A again with a certain approximation that is very very close to linear for the transition from 25 to 50 yards (close distances not for 100 to 1000 yards). I was just trying to answer the initial question using a very simple mathematical linearization.
:)

And Slavex's point is that assuming a linear profile is incorrect.

We're talking about an object which is axisymmetric neither in form, nor in mass distribution, which is spinning while passing through a non-uniform medium. The assymetry in form will cause local shock formation to vary in the theta wise direction, not to mention simple drag, particularly variation in the turbulent transition and separation points in the axial dimension.

The small but non-zero distance between the bullet's mass centroid and axis of rotation will cause precession, which will cause the bullet's axial direction to "wobble".

Fundamentally, slight variations in the bullet's outer shape will determine what proportion of the gasses pass a certain location on the bullet's surface, which will impart a certain degree of initial wobble.

Incidentally, did you know that a parabola is a second order exponential expansion? So a parabola is an exponential. Q.E.D.

Nevermind that Slavex was not referring to the theoretical trajectory of the bullet (which is indeed a parablola... in the curved neo-rectilinear frame of this planet's gravity), but rather it's deviation from that path, as a function of x,y,z,a,b,c.. etc.

We can formulate this as follows:

Px = Px0 + V1 (t-t0)Cos(theta) - (1/2)(drag_x/mass)(t-t0)^2 + EpsilonX
Py = Py0 + V1Sin(theta)(t-t0) - (1/2)(drag_y/mass+32.2)(t-t0)^2 + EpsilonY
Pz = EpsilonZ

Where:

V1 = muzzle velocity
Px0 = initial distance downrange
Py0 = initial height
theta = muzzle angle in the 2D (x,y) frame

By definition, Pz0 = 0.

The Epsilon, or error functions of each parametric equation is a non-linear equation involving a large number of variables, some impossible to quantify except using some sort of stochastic analysis, and frankly, I'd rather lick the dark end of Slavex's knob than perform *that*.

Simply by inspection of the number of controlling variables involved in determining the error functions, it is relatively plain that they are not linear.
 
It would be a linear relationship if the bullet velocity would remain constant over the entire flight path. However, as we know it doesn't, and as mentioned the other influences, ie., atmospheric, also come into play for the real world.

If shot in the vacuum of space without gravity, the numbers would correspond to the direct relationship, assuming that the components and gun were perfect.

There are a LOT of claims of accuracy for handguns. I like accurate guns and have paid the price for accurate guns.

And accuracy is relative. And mostly relative on what the potential owner needs/requires/desires.

And sometimes accuracy can come at a price other than monetary. That price may include reliability, size, physical characteristics, etc.

So it all has to be taken in the package of desire.

If ya want one hole groups, shoot one round;) .

99% of our shooters cannot shoot better than the potential for 99% of our guns.

However, at a certain point, shooting is 10% physical and 90% mental. If you think your gun is not accurate, your probably going to prove it right.

My opinion, others may vary.
 
Does Les Baer actually provide a test target showing 1.5" or less group at 50 yards or are they just promising to rectify the problem if your gun turns out to be less accurate?
 
yjr rmf pg ,u lmpn od mpy fstl oyad [it[;r

or, once I put my hands in the right spot on the keyboard,

the end of my knob is not dark it's purple
 
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