Which scope level?

Dogleg said:
Sometimes we take a point to to extremes to to prove it, but when taken to extremes they don't hold up. This is the case with your 30 degree cant example.
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Hey Mike, I thought it was you. We used to work together at Sperry a few years back. My brother Rob still works there, ring a bell?

I agree, a 30 degree tilt is going overboard. I should not have said it does not matter. Due to the cant of the scope toward the bore/bullet path, if the scope is not somewhat close to being directly over the bullet path it does introduce significant error at longer ranges. But by your calculations, if I have my gun tilted say 6 or 7 degrees (which is what I should have said) and my scope is still level, then at 1000 yards it will introduce about a 1.6" windage error.

In a perfect world where the wind never blows and everyone shoots 5 shots into the bull at 1000 yards, having only adjusted the elevation, the 1.6" windage error would be unacceptable. However in the real world, there are much worse factors (wind) than a slight scope to bullet path misalignment.

Even if having the scope perfectly over the bore were critical, mounting a U.S. optics level and leveling it to the rail does not mean that the rail and scope are going to be sitting directly over the bullet path anyway.

The only way I know of to properly align the scope to the bullet path is to put up a large target and level it. Fire a three shot group making sure the scope is level to the target. Then crank the scope up say 20MOA and then shoot again at 100yards. If the second group is directly over top of the first(use a plum-bob) then the scope is true to the bullet path. If not the scope needs to be turned one way or the other.

I have done this test with a few of my rifles. Even with the gun tilted a few degree's and the scope still level, the groups have always lined up within a 1/2inch and usually better depending on how good the gun shoots. So far I have never needed to turn my scope and I do not notice any error at long range. That’s not to say it isn't there, but I don't notice it.

Anyway the point I guess I wanted to make was that the scope must be held level for every shot to maintain consistency. Consistency, as I am sure everyone who shoots for accuracy will agree, is very important. Where as a slight tilt in the rifle may cause a little error but the error remains consistent.

Dave H
 
Dogleg said:
I'm looking for recomendations for a 30mm, scope mounted or otherwise adjustable rifle level. What I don't want is a fixed one mounting to the rail, there's too many things that can go wrong that I've already seen.
What are the favorites?
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There are two I liked very much. The first, my favorite, was the level which appeared in the bottom of your field of view in the Springfield Professional scope. This is the scope that taught me how little cant difference from shot to shot actually makes to your group. These scopes didn't seem to have the best reputation on the internet, but mine worked flawlessly until the windage adjustments went south, then I replaced it with a S&B. But the important thing to me was that I did not have to take my focus away from my sight picture to see the level.

There was an electronic level that again worked without you needing to shift your focus away from the sight picture, and it worked on a row on lights; you were level when the center light illuminated. These were advertised in Varmint Hunter and Accurate Rifle magazines for some time, but I don't recall the name of it or know if it is still available.

My second favorite level is the one which I currently have on my .243. It is made by Horus Vision and you will have to get it sent to you from a pal in the Sates as they will not ship to Canada. Anyway, it is a combination level on top and slope angle indicator on the bottom. The disadvantage is that your focus is taken off the sight picture to see it, but such is the case with any external level. It mounts to the scope with a scope ring, so your scope tube must be long enough to accommodate a third ring

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Dave,
You know I was just having fun. How's Departure treating you?
I just want a level that can be adjusted so when I believe the rifle is level it reads level. A gas gauge that read 1/2 tank when it was actually empty shouldn't matter either, but would drive me nuts.;) Besides, if I have to turn the scope to get the elevation to track, I would then be able to readjust the scope level back to zero instead of remembering that this rifle's level is 1/4 bubble right, another is 1/2 bubble to the left, and another is straight up. I've got a swack of rifles to set up with levels and would like them to be and read the same. The USO tube mount looks like the way I'll go. That way I can get them all reading highside.
Does your dad still run his 600 yard range? I just bought the land for a natural 800 yarder myself, now just to build a bench or 2 and target stands. I'm pumped.
Mike
 
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Dogleg said:
Dave,
You know I was just having fun. How's Departure treating you?

Does your dad still run his 600 yard range? I just bought the land for a natural 800 yarder myself, now just to build a bench or 2 and target stands. I'm pumped.
Mike
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Work is work. Doesn't seem like much changed, just the name. Oh ya, all the Big Red BS is gone so thats nice.

I have tried a few different kinds of levels and the one I like best is just a simple sinclairs scope mount with an offset to the side. I mount it upside down so it is underneth on the left side of the scope. It's out of the way and I can see it without moving my head. On my .308 with a NXS 5.5-22-50mm, I did have to modify it a bit to get it to fit, because of the lower rings. The rail was touching it but nothing a quick file job and touch up paint couldn't handle.

Yep Dad still has the range, although it's just 200 yards. My private range reaches out to 900yards, which is where I spend most of my time shooting.

The new property sounds nice. Can never go wrong buying land. Do you plan on shooting paper or getting some steel and hanging some gongs?

Dave

Boomer: That Horus level looks nice, whats the cost if a guy could get one? Is it a restricted item or do they just not ship to Canada.
I agree with dogleg, 99% of the shooting I do it's not needed but it would be nice to have one on my rig next time I go to the mountains.
 
Boomer,

That looks like a great level/cosine/bracket for the money!

Is the plastic more robust than it looks?
 
X-fan said:
Boomer,

That looks like a great level/cosine/bracket for the money!

Is the plastic more robust than it looks?
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I think it is more robust than would be a simple plastic bubble level sticking out the side of the rifle, but in all honesty this .243 doesn't get used very hard. Will it survive the rifle falling over on the hardwood floor? I hope I don't find out.
 
BigUglyMan said:
The new official Saskatchewan motto...

See Saskatchewan...Standing On A Chair
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It does simplify shooting calculations. I'm content knowing that though a 300 yard shot at 30 degrees works out to 260 yards it won't cause any misses. A 1000 yard shot at 30 degrees may work out to 866 yards and matter a lot, but would require a 1500 foot hill. I'm pretty sure that we don't have any, but could someone post a picture of one so I will recognize one if I see it?:D
 
Dave42,
I will do both, hanging gongs and mounting target frames. The gongs should cut down on the miles on my quad, besides being more fun. I'm hoping that my now retired welder buddy still has access to the junk-pile so I can get more of that Astralloy plate for nothing.Turns out that when you cut a round hole in something the garbage is round too.Handy coincidence.:D

Holland had a pretty good article on turning scopes to get the POI to track vertically, basically saying the same thing you did. I've corrected windage errors on varmint rifles at different distances by rotating the scope too. Since we can agree that small changes in the scope will correct the vertical misalignment, doesn't it also follow that the same amount of rotation will introduce an equal amount of error if it tracked in the first place? Wouldn't turning it the wrong way make it worse? Since in either case you hold the crosshairs level the only change is in the cant of the rifle under the scope. I think your example actually proves my point. Besides, keeping everything straight and level can be my contribution to restoring order in the world.;)
 
Dogleg said:
Dave42,
Since in either case you hold the crosshairs level the only change is in the cant of the rifle under the scope. I think your example actually proves my point.
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Yep it does.

Thing is though, why worry about a little bit(< 7 degrees) of rifle cant when the consistent error introduced is so small that most guns and shooters can't even shoot a group small enough to prove it exists. When I get good enough to notice a consistent 1.5" windage error at 1000 yards WATCH OUT! Right now I'm just happy hitting a 15" gong at 900 yards with my first shot on a calm day.

The other point I wanted to make in my last post was, why level your scope base with a USO level when that will not even help the problem of the scope vertically tracking the bullet path.

Thanks for reminding me about the Holland article. That's where I picked up the alignment test from, but couldn't remember where. It's a great read here's the link for those interested.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/reticle-perpendicularity.php

If a person wants to get the absolute best results using a USO scope level the thing to do would be align the scope to the bore like in Holland’s article and then, with the scope sitting level to the target used, shim the USO to read level. Forget about aligning it to the base.:confused:

Mike, you should come out to the Alberta Long Range Challenge.

http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php?t=307634

If you like shooting gongs, it doesn't get any better than this. Only thing is that you'll need to use something smaller than the .338 edge. Eventualy Mutt plans to have hardened plate at the closer ranges but right now the big cals just do to much damage to the targets.

There are a bunch of sask boys coming out already, and I'm sure they would like some more help "trying" to take the gold from the Alberta Boys. Promise there are no hills to worry about.:p It's a great time and lots to share and learn, not to mention a pile of prizes to win.:D

Dave
 
Dave,
I think we've managed to go full circle, and agree more than you think. The whole idea is to pick an adjustable level so I can initially level the rifle to the action rails (not the mounting rail) mount a scope however it takes to get the POI to track with the adjustments then mount a tube mounted level so when I reach that happy state of affairs the bubble will be sitting in the middle. I don't want a rail mounted level. Apparently USO makes a tube mounted level as well, which is the way I'll go.
That shoot sounds fun, maybe the summer will slow down enough for me to make it. Would a .300 Win Mag be OK?


I'm looking for recomendations for a 30mm, scope mounted or otherwise adjustable rifle level. What I don't want is a fixed one mounting to the rail, there's too many things that can go wrong that I've already seen.
What are the favorites?
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Dogleg said:
That shoot sounds fun, maybe the summer will slow down enough for me to make it. Would a .300 Win Mag be OK?
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Yep the .300 win mag is ok.

I have a feeling it will be plenty slow by mid May in the patch. Not sure what Sperry has in store but I'm getting in any day's I can before breakup. Matter of fact I'm sitting on the Hay project right now.

The shoot is a great chance to pull some triggers insdeat of tapping keys on a computer,;) so try and make the time and come on out.

I think we both have a pretty good understanding about the leveling of the scope vs leveling the gun. I think our round robin posts probably helped a few others though so it's all good.:D


Dave
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