Who knows their beligan proof marks and makers marks?

Fox

Fox

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I just bought a "fine twist" double muzzloading shotgun.

I took off the barrels and the following proof marks are present:

The E over LG in an oval - star is solid.

178 - Pretty sure this means 17.8mm, which is 0.700in, which is what the muzzle measures, so a 14ga?

The "Perron" - on the outside of one of the chambers, visible while in the stock.

Reverse "B" "L" - made after 1852?

Crown over V - on one chamber

Crown over G - on one chamber

Crown over GI - on one chamber

Crown over X - on the breech block on both sides

"JM" - stamped on one barrel, covered by the stock, a makers mark I believe but cannot find anything to line up this mark.

Trying to figure out who made it and when.

Thanks
 
Not trying to dis you on your request.

Google is your friend in this information

Google Belgian firearms proof marks

There is a tome of information on these marks, including the date periods they were used.
 
None of those marks identify the maker. The JM stamped on the barrels is likely the craftsman who worked on the barrels. If there is no maker's name you will likely not know the maker. Closest one could get would be to see some pics as the style and features may make it possible to make a good guess as to whom the maker may have been.
 
bearhunter said:
Not trying to dis you on your request.

Google is your friend in this information

Google Belgian firearms proof marks

There is a tome of information on these marks, including the date periods they were used.
Click to expand...

There are tons of pictures but contradictions in information and no information on many of the stamps, that is why I asked here, figured I would ask the experts :)
 
bearhunter said:
Not trying to dis you on your request.

Google is your friend in this information

Google Belgian firearms proof marks

There is a tome of information on these marks, including the date periods they were used.
Click to expand...

I will try to get it pulled apart today and get some pictures. The JM I figured would be the barrel maker, but if they only worked at a certain time that would narrow down the age.
 
The E over LG in an oval - star is solid.

This is the stamp of the Liége Proof House - ÉPREUVE LIÉGE from 1846 to 1924.

178 - Pretty sure this means 17.8mm, which is 0.700in, which is what the muzzle measures, so a 14ga?

It's a tight 12 gauge - 18mm is the nominal bore diameter for 12 gauge. Until 1894 it was graduated in 0.2mm steps, after that date, IAW the German Proof Law endorsements of 1891/2, this was changed to 0.1mm steps.

The "Perron" - on the outside of one of the chambers, visible while in the stock.

That's the law, and has been since 1672. Since 1853 it has been used as an proof of inspection of the breeching.

Reverse "B" "L" - made after 1852?

NOT a B - it is a cursive E L - used since 1852 - reserved solely for use on smoothbore guns since 1924.

Crown over V - on one chamber - Crown over ANY letter of the alphabet - inspector's initial

Crown over G - on one chamber - ditto

Crown over GI - on one chamber - ditto

Crown over X - on the breech block on both sides - ditto

"JM" - stamped on one barrel, covered by the stock, a makers mark I believe but cannot find anything to line up this mark.

Barrel-maker

At the time that this gun was made - somewhere between 1830 and 1890, there were literally hundreds of barrel makers employed by the many Liége gun-making establishments/manufactories as private-owner barrel makers - each one had their own small atelier and foundry.

As you have not provided us with a name on either the locks or the barrel rib, we had no way of knowing any of the history of this gun which is, in any case, just one of many hundreds of thousands of similar guns in that period of prolific gun-making, particularly for the North American market. My 1902 Sears catalogue is chock-full of 'best grade' Belgian guns from as little as $3.95. Your gun would have to have a recognisable name to be identified, and bear in mind that the Belgian gun trade made free with the the better-known and far more prestigious gunmakers of England and the USA in a way that would be deemed illegal these days. Bass & Co [Boss], Wastley-Rechards [Westley-Richards], Halland & Halland [Holland & Holand] were just a few. L & C Smith, instead of L C Smith was also pretty common...

BTW, if you know the Hoopers, tell them Eleanor says hello.
 
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tacfoley said:
The E over LG in an oval - star is solid.

This is the stamp of the Liége Proof House - ÉPREUVE LIÉGE from 1846 to 1924.

178 - Pretty sure this means 17.8mm, which is 0.700in, which is what the muzzle measures, so a 14ga?

It's a tight 12 gauge - 18mm is the nominal bore diameter for 12 gauge. Until 1894 it was graduated in 0.2mm steps, after that date, IAW the German Proof Law endorsements of 1891/2, this was changed to 0.1mm steps.

The "Perron" - on the outside of one of the chambers, visible while in the stock.

That's the law, and has been since 1672. Since 1853 it has been used as an proof of inspection of the breeching.

Reverse "B" "L" - made after 1852?

NOT a B - it is a cursive E L - used since 1852 - reserved solely for use on smoothbore guns since 1924.

Crown over V - on one chamber - Crown over ANY letter of the alphabet - inspector's initial

Crown over G - on one chamber - ditto

Crown over GI - on one chamber - ditto

Crown over X - on the breech block on both sides - ditto

"JM" - stamped on one barrel, covered by the stock, a makers mark I believe but cannot find anything to line up this mark.

Barrel-maker

At the time that this gun was made - somewhere between 1830 and 1890, there were literally hundreds of barrel makers employed by the many Liége gun-making establishments/manufactories as private-owner barrel makers - each one had their own small atelier and foundry.

As you have not provided us with a name on either the locks or the barrel rib, we had no way of knowing any of the history of this gun which is, in any case, just one of many hundreds of thousands of similar guns in that period of prolific gun-making, particularly for the North American market. My 1902 Sears catalogue is chock-full of 'best grade' Belgian guns from as little as $3.95. Your gun would have to have a recognisable name to be identified, and bear in mind that the Belgian gun trade made free with the the better-known and far more prestigious gunmakers of England and the USA in a way that would be deemed illegal these days. Bass & Co [Boss], Wastley-Rechards [Westley-Richards], Halland & Halland [Holland & Holand] were just a few. L & C Smith, instead of L C Smith was also pretty common...

BTW, if you know the Hoopers, tell them Eleanor says hello.
Click to expand...


I do not know any Hoopers, but I will keep that name in the back of my mind.

Ya, no other markings on it except "Fine Twist" on the rib, I will get some pictures when the kids are in bed so that I can try to figure out what it may be.

This is pretty much what I had figured out, the E over LG with a solid star I have seen different date ranges, pretty darn sure this is a pre 1898 though. I was hoping that the inspectors marks would be in some book, but I realize that Liege proofed and inspected guns from all around the world, not just for Belgian guns and there seems to be an almost infinite number of proof marks.

There is nothing that says choke anywhere and it sure seems to be a cylinder bore. The 17.8 (0.700in) to me would be either an open 14ga (0.693in) or a tight 13ga (0.710in), I know that 14ga was popular back then, or 69 cal.

Ya, the barrel maker, again, hoping that someone had a book on it.
 
If you are willing to spend some money, there is a fellow in Belgium who might be able to help. Look under Little Guns in Belgium on google.
 
There are indeed 14 bore Muzzle Loading shotguns. You have one.
You can buy currently produced 14 gauge wads, if you intend to shoot this gun.
 
Ok, kids and wife are in bed, here are some pictures.

I am going to get it inspected, if the barrels are good and the gunsmith gives me the go ahead I would love to shoot this thing, with pure BP of course.

https://flic.kr/p/2kTyXv8

https://flic.kr/p/2kTrXnZ

https://flic.kr/p/2kTyXhH

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuSW7

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuoBD

https://flic.kr/p/2kTtyTd

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuon5

https://flic.kr/p/2kTtyLV

https://flic.kr/p/2kTtyGG

https://flic.kr/p/2kTuo9z

https://flic.kr/p/2kTyWkn

https://flic.kr/p/2kTrWc2
 
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The gunsmiths of Belgium (Liege in particular) were like the gunsmiths of Khyber Pass today. Most of their names have been lost to history. There were countless little workshops, churning out knock-offs of existing patents, or sometimes creating their own bizarre designs, and all with a huge discrepancy in quality.
 
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Okay, given that your seem to have taken them in the middle of a bunch of casino adverts...however, the hash-marks are assembly marks used to keep all the bits in one box together for the same gun. It's a nice-looking gun, as as noted, 14g.
 
john94 said:
The gunsmiths of Belgium (Liege in particular) were like the gunsmiths of Khyber Pass today. Most of their names have been lost to history. There were countless little workshops, churning out knock-offs of existing patents, or sometimes creating their own bizarre designs, and all with a huge discrepancy in quality.
Click to expand...

Same with the region once called Saxony.
IIRC it bordered Germany and what later became Czechoslavakia. Teutonic influence was often seen in the wooden stock work.
Any antique firearm I seen from there was of a superior quality.
This might of been the Hora district in later years.
 
the barrels seem to be in exceptionally good condition on the outside ; hopefully just as good on the inside. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with Belgian barrels, just the lock components tend to be roughly finished. Having said that I have seen Belgian locks which were just as good as Birmingham locks

cheers mooncoon
 
tacfoley said:
Okay, given that your seem to have taken them in the middle of a bunch of casino adverts...however, the hash-marks are assembly marks used to keep all the bits in one box together for the same gun. It's a nice-looking gun, as as noted, 14g.
Click to expand...

Never used Flikr before, photobucket now cannot be used like we used to, ha ha.

It is nice.
 
mooncoon said:
the barrels seem to be in exceptionally good condition on the outside ; hopefully just as good on the inside. In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with Belgian barrels, just the lock components tend to be roughly finished. Having said that I have seen Belgian locks which were just as good as Birmingham locks

cheers mooncoon
Click to expand...

The inside has no pitting but you can see the twist, which I would think is normal. There is one small ding up about 6in from the muzzle but you have to run your finger along it to know.

Do you think there may be a name on the lock? I saw a few pictures where the locks were numbers. The hammers wiggle a bit right now, may need a shim in there to tighten things up.

I want to get them in to have them expected but now we are in a stay at home order so I will just keep running CLP down the bore and try to get rid of the rust remnants without wrecking anything.
 
Took the locks off, no markings at all on them, just gummed up, they needed to be cleaned up too. I did notice a crack under the locks though, in the stock :(, we shall see what the gunsmith says, after the stay at home order is over.
 
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