Why reload?

Southcountryguy

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My FIL brought me lymans 44th edition of their reloading handbook today. It is quite an interesting read that has many interesting (different) views. With the cost of powder today this page brought a chuckle.

I am getting back into reloading primarily for reduced loads to build my daughters up with.

Enjoy your day…

SCG.
 

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Old reloading manuals are a very dangerous rabbit hole to go anywhere near... you see something that falls inside your areas of interest... and then the next thing you know... down the rabbit hole...

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Haha, rabbit holes. Funny how I never come with what I was chasing but it costs me $4-5k to get what I didn’t want.

On another note this reloading handbook often references using common sense. So I ask where people buy it at the cheapest price, quality isn’t an issue, is it?

SCG
 
Haha, rabbit holes. Funny how I never come with what I was chasing but it costs me $4-5k to get what I didn’t want.

On another note this reloading handbook often references using common sense. So I ask where people buy it at the cheapest price, quality isn’t an issue, is it?

SCG

Laugh2

Unfortunately common sense isn't something available at a store. I don't think it is something one is born with either, but is developed over time and perhaps the pinnacle in it's development arrives when one acknowledges they don't know everything. This theory is supported by the simple observations of the tendencies of the teenager and university student with regard to widsom and knowledge. In some people common sense is simply never nurtured as evidenced by the tendency of adults to embrace failed political systems and ideologies. ;)

La sens commun n'est pas si commun. François-Marie Arouet

Back to thread subject: I have lots of targets stuck on the wall reaffirming why I need to reload. There are even more targets in the garbage that would without question affirm the same. :) With the way prices have gone, the savings advantage has shrunk but the primary reason remains as well availability: not much is available right now, but if I reload I have that market as well as the factory ammo one from which to source rounds.
 
If you're one of those folks that only has components on hand, dating back ten years or less, those old manuals were made up at a time when litigation wasn't an issue.

It was quite common for the people at the time to experiment with what they had on hand, often because reloading was akin to Alchemists trying to turn lead into gold.

There were a lot of uneducated people around 50 years ago. Many here would be very surprised at the percentage of barely or even illiterate people around.

Most of the work in those days didn't require learning the three "Rs" Strong backs and weak mind were the main qualities being sought after by employers.

I still remember a fellow, around 1965, who insisted that firearms were much stronger than people thought and he could load well beyond the max levels listed in his manuals.

I saw him appx a year later, with a huge scar on the right side of his face and a dark lens for his new glasses, over the right eye.

He no longer reloaded and had sold off all of his firearms and hunting equipment.

Common sense comes in many forms.

Many people neve move beyond anything that's in their manuals.

Even todays manuals can give inaccurate/unsafe loads.

The best thing you can do, is get educated on how different propellants/components react in your particular rifle.

I had Browning Safari rifle, which was basicly a commercial 98 Mauser, chambered in 30-06, that showed signs of pressure with MINIMUM recommended loads.

It had a chamber that was right on maximum specs and was never an accurate rifle, unless I used neck sized only reloads.

I sold that rifle to a fellow that fully understood its limitations and how to deal with them.

Manuals, no matter what age are suggested min/max loadings.

Anyone that believes differently, is going to eventually have a negative experience. Especially if they don't keep the same rifle from one year to the next.

I'm one of those people that just can't handle using one rifle for every type of hunting I do, or have done.

I have a rifle for the truck, one for a tree stand, one for a blind, one for stalking, one for target shooting and the list goes on. In some cases I have several that will cover some or most of all the combined types of situations I like to hunt.

This means, to me, that I have to have a very good grasp of what the powders I have on hand are capable of and their limitations.

For instance, that #4831 load for the 250-3000 in the photo. That load was developed with relatively fresh #4831 milspec powder from WWII and sold by Hogdon's.

It's similar but not the same as later manufactured H4831 or IMR4831.

Whomever made the notation, didn't note which variant powder they used, so the information is only relavent to his rifle and the powder lot he used at the time.

The next lot of powder that individual purchased, could easily have fallen safely within those specs.

I have powder on hand that's close to 80 years old now, purchased as surplus in 50 pound containers and proper sealed/stored. I am using up the last of it now and it just happens to be #4831 and some #3031. They've been tightly sealed all this time and haven't changed much. They have changed though, maybe 5% faster, but they haven't deteriorated in any other way.

If you run across a pound or two of this old powder, IMHO it isn't worth going through the efforts of working up loads for, simply because you will never find any more of it.

Many of the loads in those old manuals were done with the try it and find out method.

PO Ackley was one of the folks that worked on that principle until he got some decent equipment set up to measure the crush on pure copper inserts in his test receivers.

Ken Waters was also a stalwart enthusiast in trying to establish safe/accurate parameters for the powders available during his time.

Most younger people on this site haven't even heard of Parker Ackly or Ken Waters and some of their predecessors such as Hatcher, Hagel Whelen.

It's not so much that they were especially knowledgeable as much as they laid the groundworks for what we have to work with today.

Don't guffaw those old manuals.

Under the right circumstances they can be treasure troves for information.
 
New camper regarding cost savings I ran a few loads with online prices for components against the exact same round commercially available. Interestingly that the savings comes when comparing higher end (sime may just say mor expensive) bullets. Here, in 30-60, it costs about 1/3 to reload over buying factory, like the ratio in the picture. For low end (cheaper) bullets sometimes it was a wash on cost.

Bearhunter yes, we are in an overly litigious society. While 90% of what I say has my tongue lodged firmly in my cheek I also found it equally amusing that as often as they mentioned using common sense they also mentioned how unwise it was to smoke while reloading. Maybe common sense has a quality after all? The other thing I enjoy is how they describe people to slug their barrels to figure out which bullet to make and/or state of their barrel.

SCG
 
You're a product of your time, it's quite obviuos from your post. Barrels often weren't uniform or of consistent diameters from bore to bore. Same thing can happen today with different barrel manufacturers.

What exactly did he post that got your ire all bent and twisted around the axle? Particularly when you quote him pointing out they also cautioned people to determine the proper bullet, while you swiftly say that we often still do that? I didn't see a hint of him suggesting that slugging chambers and barrels is a thing of the past.

Your inexperience is blatantly obvious.

You might take a little bit of caution before pointing at yourself stroking your long grey beard and assuming/presuming he's a downy cheeked youth who never saw a reloading press before early this morning. Or this decade.

We all have various levels of expertise. Some as wide and as shallow as piss on a plate. Others, a great depth of knowledge about a very narrow field of knowledge. Some of us somewhere in the middle.

And very few of us are perfect communicators when tapping away at their keyboards; if we were that precise and articulate in our language, we'd probably be collecting a paycheque to write, whether about guns or hunting or whatever. It doesn't hurt to extend a little bit of grace; perhaps the poster's sentence structure wasn't quite as perfect as it could have been. To extend some of that grace, maybe yours wasn't either. Maybe mine isn't now.

There were a lot of uneducated people around 50 years ago. Many here would be very surprised at the percentage of barely or even illiterate people around.

I remember the industrial workforce my father and grandfather worked in 50 years ago that I was joining. Knuckle dragging miners and underground tradesmen that worked beside them. I was happy to become the latest generation of knuckle dragging miner, except I went blasting. Boy, there sure was all kinds of math figuring out brisance, fracture, collars, calculating delays and firing sequences, reading drilling and loading blueprints... all kinds of that formula stuff they hadn't even taught me back in Grade 3. Hard being an illiterate, strong backed knuckle dragger sometimes.

I remember how uneducated you had to be, practically illiterate in fact, to be a journeyman machinist, tool and die maker, millwright, carpenter properly building forms to take the concrete that would become the dam penstocks on the Columbia River, holding back millions of tons of water, etc.

The math for those trades was so easy I'm surprised they didn't just start them in the trades at whatever grade of elementary school they had a strong enough back and arms to pick up a tool belt. And the tech sheets and service data for the millwrights doing maintenance and overhall of Symons crushers, Pelton wheel electrical generators... any illiterate monkey could go through that.

And then there's the as-built blueprints they worked off, whether to machine a replacement part for a one-off piece of equipment, or to service it.

Must have been a hell of a hard time getting those illiterate, strong backs and weak minds tradesman to build the gantries and the spacecraft themselves that the truly smart guys designed for them to build so they could fly men to land on the moon. And reliable enough, properly built enough by those tradesmen, that it could then return safely back to earth.

Yep... mostly a society of illiterate, ignorant anybody can do it blue collar workers way back 50 years ago.

Y'know, as dumb as they were back then, and not worried about slip and fall lawsuit lawyers back then, the pages of the assorted hunting and shooting magazines were remarkably absent of many stories about how ol' Joe Six Pack, that dumb journeyman carpenter, blew his gun up in his face while on days off from building the forms for the concrete that would become the penstock for the W.A.C Bennett dam. Maybe they weren't as dumb and as dangerously adventurous back then as we might think. And maybe even today the majority aren't as dumb and as dangerously adventurous as some people think.

Only seen one gun blow up. Guy that did that was well into his 70's at the time. If I recall correctly, he had worked as one of Cominco's process techs from the concentrator until retirement. No strong back and weak mind there. But of course, as I don't believe in presenting an anecdotal event I witnessed as being representative of all, that's only a single observation that really doesn't prove the truly smart guys who can write letters after their name are the ones you can expect to blow themselves up.

The world of reloading is a complex place where most go their own unique way, following their personal muse. Extending a little grace makes the journey a lot more pleasant.

We now return you to your previously scheduled program.
 
You seem to be under the impression that I was denigrating the AS YOU CALL THEM, NOT ME, KNUCKLE DRAGGERS.

Lots of people in those days, never made it out of grade three and did well, because they didn't need the math skills you mention, nor literate skills.

It wasn't at all uncommon to come across people that couldn't read or write.

That most certainly didn't mean they didn't know what they were doing, or weren't clever enough to find another way that worked.

Their main method of testing was "TRIAL AND ERROR"

There are times when an education actually LIMITS the ability of people to work outside the box, especially if they never question what they were taught.



Southcountryguy, I reread your post, which I misread. I apologize.
 
Not quite sure where you people were seeing all of the illiterate people in 1971. I never knew anyone that grew up between 1902 (when my grand-parents came to Canada) and when I graduated high school in 1971 at the age of 16, that had a grade 3 education.

There is much more illiteracy now in Canada, then there has ever been do to very poor education. Just look at high school grads in the last 20 years. A lot of them have a hard time spelling their own name.

I have known handloaders that exceeded load data given in manuals, but these were arrogant well-educated morons, that figured that they were so smart that they did not have to pay any attention to Manuals. In their opinions, manuals were just "starting points" Can't fix stupid even with education.
 
Why? To make better ammunition.

Yes, to make better ammunition.

Some off the shelf firearms shoot factory loaded ammo like lasers. If you're lucky enough to have one of those be happy.

Most people reload for several reasons.

Some find it relaxing but many just find it tedious or just can't spare the time or space.

If the hand loader does some research and does some bulk purchases, such as 1000 packs of bullets/primers and 8 pound kegs of powder, even with premium grade bullets, the cost of ammo can be approximately half or less than that of factory fodder.

If you only shoot 20-60 rounds per year, some shoot less, then reloading may not be for you.

If you have a rifle that won't give you the accuracy you desire, then you may need to get rid of the rifle and find one that does shoot factory ammo accurately or hand load for your particular rifle and work up a load that will work, as long as everything else, such as bedding is OK.

Over the past ten years, off the shelf rifles usually shoot factory ammo well enough to hunt with. CNC manufacturing equipment keep tolerances much more consistent.

It's only when the corporation doesn't properly maintain their equipment or replace it when it's worn out, that things go awry.
 
Not quite sure where you people were seeing all of the illiterate people in 1971. I never knew anyone that grew up between 1902 (when my grand-parents came to Canada) and when I graduated high school in 1971 at the age of 16, that had a grade 3 education.

There is much more illiteracy now in Canada, then there has ever been do to very poor education. Just look at high school grads in the last 20 years. A lot of them have a hard time spelling their own name.

I have known handloaders that exceeded load data given in manuals, but these were arrogant well-educated morons, that figured that they were so smart that they did not have to pay any attention to Manuals. In their opinions, manuals were just "starting points" Can't fix stupid even with education.

There are actually a lot less illiterate people around now than there were during the pre mid seventies era.

I do agree that many people butcher the language and their spelling skills are almost non existent, but just keep in mind, the vast majority of Canadian plebes have been texting or emailing or sitting in front of their computers for the last thirty years.

That means they are able to read and even comprehend much of what they do.

Their math skills only suffer when they have to figure things out in their heads or work out the equations on paper. Most don't even bother to memorize those equations any longer. They just type in what they want to know and press enter/search.
 
I turn off my cell phone at 2pm every Friday and do not turn it back on until Sunday evening - I do math using pen/paper no calculate or app - in the next little while people would be too connected to their phone that they will no longer be able to think on their own - it will be known as digital dementia. Why I reload - because I find it relaxing, tedius and rewarding
 
Un-critically accept something from computer / Internet leads to issues - seems as if "critical thinking" or "looking for confirmation" gets set aside. Case in point - Nosler Load Data on line - is still there, I just looked. Awaiting a reply from Nosler about it. 7mm STW - H1000 powder. 160 and 175 grain bullets use same loadings (?) How can that be? Is replicated in the Nosler 9 book here. But different in Nosler 7, 6 and so on that I have on hand. Start load given, for H1000 and 175 grain bullets, is 1.5 grains higher than former given as a Max load. Was discovered when an acquaintance randomly picked that Start load from the Internet and it froze up his rifle bolt - found by digging through older manuals to "confirm" what they had previously published. Easiest explanation (but I have not heard this from Nosler) is a computer person copied and pasted wrong numbers into a table. Appears to have been accepted as "truth" - until at least one person, that I know, tried to use and rely on those numbers.
 
Lots of people in those days, never made it out of grade three and did well, because they didn't need the math skills you mention, nor literate skills.

Odd. I don't remember that the blueprints and plans blue collar workers had to be able to read and understand were much simpler to comprehend back in 1970 prior to having a helpful computer or tablet at their side.

Nor the math of geometry, angles, feed rates, loads, hydraulic pressures were completely different back then than they are today for today's tradesmen - often working on the same systems or modified systems that their trade was repairing, maintaining, and making replacement parts for 50 years ago.

It wasn't at all uncommon to come across people that couldn't read or write.

Turns out it says the government says it's certainly not uncommon in 2021...

 
Bearhunter, while I obviously can’t read what you posted I will have to say you need to quit making assumptions based on a persons text. For whatever you posted, as I can only see snippets, your apology is accepted.

It’s going to blow your mind but as bad as my grammar is and how poorly I come across in text I am actually university educated and, you better sit down for this one, I actually won National academic competitions, obviously not in English.

Regarding experience in reloading if elapsed time is what you value for experience I still remember the charge for my .308 pet load from ‘85. If quantity is what you base experience on then when I moved in ‘95 I didn’t have room for my mostly filled 5 gal pail of primers (note I didn’t shoot semi’s either) would it solidify it further to tell you how many times I replaced the barrel on my .338 lapua? To me it means nothing. As you are always learning or at least should be. Yes, I took a decade off from firearm sports and I might have forgot somethings I need to remember I do remember what I haven’t forgot.

As this thread clearly shows people comprehend text differently than others. So sometimes when asking a basic question it isn’t that they are stupid it may be that they don’t comprehend what they read entirely or they are confused because reading from different sources gives what they see as different answers. Plus, as also pointed out in this thread, blindlessly following anything can possibly have bad results. The more you ask, read then compare then come to a decision the safer you will be.

Back on topic: The reason I am returning to reloading is for reduced loads to build my kids confidence. By reloading I can help set situations up they will succeed.

I do enjoy reading others reasons and agree that I enjoy the whole process. With the technology today I could gone with a high end powder thrower and a multi stage press and ‘get er done’ but I went the other way. I will enjoy sitting there for hours on end teaching my daughters.

Have a great day.

SCG
 
I turn off my cell phone at 2pm every Friday and do not turn it back on until Sunday evening - I do math using pen/paper no calculate or app - in the next little while people would be too connected to their phone that they will no longer be able to think on their own - it will be known as digital dementia. Why I reload - because I find it relaxing, tedius and rewarding

I was thinking about that a few days ago... having a grandparent who but in May was only mildly afflicted, has deteriorated rapidly: someone who always read, did crosswords. If there is any connection with dementia to the rate at which one challenges their mind, there are millions who will be screwed and it will be society stopping epidemic.
 
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