Wilson chamber style bullet seater

[rodagra]

I'm looking for a seating die that will give more uniform and controllable oal in my fussy 25-06. The only thing I know for sure is that it's tough to get it right every time with RCBS and Lee seaters.
Does anyone know if the Wilson chamber style will do the job?
Hopefully,
Rob

 

[Boomer]

Sounds to me like you might have some neck sizing issues rather than a faulty bullet seater. Even if there was no adjustment in the bullet seater, it should seat the bullet to the same length every time, provided you don't slam dunk the handle.

After seating the bullet, can you turn it with your fingers?
Are you using a bullet with a very short bearing surface?
Have you turned or reamed your necks?

 

[rodagra]

Boomer, you asked: "After seating the bullet, can you turn it with your fingers?
Are you using a bullet with a very short bearing surface?
Have you turned or reamed your necks?"

I can answer all with a "No." I have an RCBS inside neck reamer setup which I have used when forming 25-06 from 30-06 and 270. This isn't the problem.

The rifle is fussy with OAL because of a longer than normal leade or throat. If I get everything right---which means seating no more than about .015 off the lands it shoots very well. Seat a hair too deep and groups open to 1.25" or 1.50".

I load 100gr Nosler Partitions and 100gr Hornadays, and they have a different ogive, and thus have to be seated to a different OAL. Adjusting the seater when changing from one bullet to the other is a pain, and if you don't get it right the first time things get worse because the conventional die deforms the soft nose automatically every time because that's where the seater plug bears.

I use the RCBS seater for Nosler and Lee for Hornadays now, and once they're set up it works fine, but I think it would be better if there was a seater plug available that was shaped to bear on the ogive rather than the tip of the bullet. This would also mean that switching to different weights would be a no-brainer. The drawing on the Wilson web site looks like this is the case with their plug---but?

By the way, I've used brass brass and nickel brass and RCBS sizing die and a Lee Collet die, and nothing works better or worse than another. Get the length right and all's well.

 

[bclinehand]

Just a thought but have you made up a seating dummy for each bullet type?
I made some up for .308 , 30-06 and 22-250 by seating a bullet to the desired length and then filled the case thru the primer hole with a thin 2-part epoxy applied with a syringe .(drill it out first....my first try had epoxy everywhere) this lets you screw down the seater plug without pushing the bullet to far into the case every time........worth a try anyway

 

[rodagra]

Thanks bclinehand,
I have dummy cartridges made up for 100, 115, and 120 gr. bullets. Two of each for Nosler and Hornadays. I did this first thing after realizing that the length to ogive was all-important. This has certainly made it easier switching between these weights and styles, but I still have to go through the process again if I want to try a different style or manufacturer.
I've even thought of drilling out the plug so that it bears only on the ogive, but then I'd guess concentricity AND getting the proper drill diameter would maybe cause more problems than it would solve.

The Wilson chamber seater looks like it will do what I want from the drawing, but there's no way of being sure at this point.

Another CGN'er has this for sale right now and is holding it for me while I screw around for an answer. I think I'll just buy it and try it. If nothing else it will be a learning exersize.

One other thing: I used a dab of crazy glue to anchor the dummy bullets in place, but have found that with the spire point bullets if you adjust the plug tight enough to be sure the sharp tip deforms a little each time. It's disgustingly possible to lose a couple of thou. every time. F#*@^.

This is the only rifle I've ever owned that was that fussy, but it's like the fabled lady: "When she's good she's very, very good."

 

[Boomer]

I came across something here that may be of interest to you. A Wilson seater uses 24 turns per inch, and the RCBS 28 TPI therefore:

TPI 90* 180* 270* 360*
24 .010 .021 .031 .042
28 .009 .018 .027 .036
Read * as degrees.

Once the bullets are seated you could double check the length to ogive using a bullet comparator. I do not think that there is a quick way to resolve your problem with the degree of accuracy you demand. When variations of bullet length are taken into account - which can be as much as .025 - we are already outside your required tolarances. The Wilson dies might give you better concentricity, but I doubt if it will improve your seating accuracy.

With the long throat your bullet must be near of below 1 caliber length inside the case neck, but what happens if you seat to contact with the lands?

 

[rodagra]

Thanks Boomer, that's good informatrion. Also, you asked "With the long throat your bullet must be near of below 1 caliber length inside the case neck, but what happens if you seat to contact with the lands?"

I've done that with no obvious problems even with maximum loads. However I keep reading about this resulting in high pressures, so I've been reluctant to do it as a matter of routine. Maybe it's time to relax.

It is a quick and dirty solution which I solved this way: Using a Lee collet neck size die apply enough pressure to get a firm grip (but not too tight), then seat all the bullets a hair long. Chamber and extract every round and then crimp in the factory crimp die. If you get the squeeze right (which isn't too dificult) every bullet will be seated in contact, and they stay where they are. It's tedious, and I only did it with a trial run of 20 rounds with different bullets.

I'm going to buy the Wilson chamber seater and try it anyway. Like I've already got just about every piece known for loading 25-06. What's one more?

Your t.p.i. chart is copied, pasted and saved!
Thanks,
Rob

 

[Boomer]

I routinely load bullets into the lands in my target rifle, and have not had any problems resulting from pressure spikes, and actually I believe that is what in fact happens, the maximum pressure is reached quicker, but there is only so much pressure available in a given column of powder. I do believe however that it is prudent to work up loads if you intend to seat bullets this way. The reason I donot follow this procedure in my hunting rifles is that I want the ammo to function through the magazine, and there is always a chance that upon unloading a bullet may stick in the lands and you end up dumping powder through your action.

When I do seat a bullet into the lands I believe I get two advantages. Advantage number one is that I am sure the bullet is directly in line with the bore.

Advantage number two has to do with bullet pull weight. You have been working towards uniforming the bullet pull weight by crimping the bullet in the case, and this is one way of doing so. However, it has been my experience that it is very difficult obtain even round to round crimping. Therefore you are still working within a set of self limiting tolarances, but when the bullet is seated into the lands, the tolarances in bullet pull weight have been reduced to nearly zero.

Just thought you might need a little extra to think about.

 

[rodagra]

Quote: "upon unloading a bullet may stick in the lands"

Disconcerting ain't it? 'Specially if it sticks tight enough that you need a cleaning rod to get the sucker out.

Sometimes I wonder why all rifles aren't free-bored like Weatherbys. It's nice seating just deep enough to go in the mag. without worrying about much else.

 

[bigbull]

1.if there was a seater plug available that was shaped to bear on the ogive rather than the tip of the bullet.
rodaga it is all well to assume that one seater will take care of all of your seating problems but it is not to be. All the seaters seat bullets via contact on some part of the ogive and given that the ogive is a variable that is seldom on the same place unless you are dealing with high precision bullets your oal will vary. I have not seen a seater that seats the bullet by applying pressure on the tip of the bullet and this might be a good place to start ! There are tools that will allow you to measure your oal and create accurate dummies if you desire to keep as references for future use but if you use two seaters then dummies are not required but you still need the tool to allow you to accurately and repeatably do the job!


2. By the way, I've used brass brass and nickel brass and RCBS sizing die and a Lee Collet die, and nothing works better or worse than another. Get the length right and all's well.Getting the length right is only part of the answer to repeatable and accurate loads, actually the volume of the case is much more important to consistency than the length of the case. The dies you mentioned are totally different in operation and cannot replace each other, one is used to neck size and the other for full length sizing. the Wislon seater is something I use and they work well.

my .02
bigbull