Winchester 1894 questions - firing pin and extraction

Zedbra

Zedbra

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Gents, I picked up a beautiful 1894 44 MAG some time ago and gave it as a gift to my children's God Father. I have been firing this rifle lately and have noticed a couple things that I need a little help to explain. The gun is in good overall shape with minimal wear, I have never taken it apart (or any lever gun for that matter) to clean, but have cleaned it well with what I can reach with the bolt open.

First - I have noticed that the firing pin strikes have become quite hard and deep - almost puncturing the primer. Is this a simple cleaning issue or something else to look into?

Second - I have noticed that the extractor does not want to let go of the last round, it holds tightly onto the casing lip; this only happens with the last case, as the weight of following cartridges up the ramp eject all the others quite a ways to the right. Is this normal, or do I need to fix something?

I will get some pics up soon, because we all love pics - I just wanted to get the ball rolling and maybe fix this rifle today if possible.

Thanks

Ian

Alas - pics. The rifle:




I like this bullet holder built into the stock - I haven't seen another like it:




Chamber:




Firing pin/extractor:




And finally - the firing pin indents (the last five rounds). All the other rounds were also fired from this rifle previously, so the deep strikes just started to happen the last 20 rounds or so (only 5 shown).

 
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I'd get a can of Fluid Film and shake the buh-jeeezus out of it as
the destructions state.
Pewt the straw on the nozzle and spray that action liberally with it.
Let it set for a day or two and proceed to dab away with Q-tips
and such.
Could be bunch'oh dust and grime in there being deseatfull.
Don't furgitt to run a rag down the bore to sawp up the rest of the splash.
 
When you say a 92 in 44 RM are you talking about a converted original 92, a Miroku 92, or a Browning 92...........all similar but not identical. Or maybe a Rossi or Uberti............
 
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Some pretty flat looking primers in that photo.

Send'r here and I'm sure that will really gitt'im tugg'in hizz'air........................:cool:
 
kamlooky said:
Some pretty flat looking primers in that photo.

Send'r here and I'm sure that will really gitt'im tugg'in hizz'air........................:cool:
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I'm hoping this stays at Chez Zed's for a long time to come - my friend is in no hurry to have it back as he doesn't shoot much anymore. ;)
 
Can't tell if the ejector is in there or not, but I had an ejector break and the head go missing. The gun will eject all but the last round because as the fresh cartridge is pushed up by the lifter, it has enough force to push the spent round out of the extractor claw. You would see dramatically less forceful ejection of brass and it would be proportional to how hard you rack the lever. as for the pierced primer, is it just one brand of ammo or primers? Are they large rifle primers by any chance? They may sit farther out of the case and get pierced as a result.

This was for a 92, it may ring true for a 94, I have no idea though.
 
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skokie said:
Can't tell if the ejector is in there or not, but I had an ejector break and the head go missing. The gun will eject all but the last round because as the fresh cartridge is pushed up by the lifter, it has enough force to push the spent round out of the extractor claw. You would see dramatically less forceful ejection of brass and it would be proportional to how hard you rack the lever. as for the pierced primer, is it just one brand of ammo or primers? Are they large rifle primers by any chance? They may sit farther out of the case and get pierced as a result.

This was for a 92, it may ring true for a 94, I have no idea though.
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Thanks skokie - I watched a few vids, perhaps I will tear it down to get the bolt and firing pin out, take a few pics and then that may tell more regarding wear. I'll be looking your way.
 
So I managed to strip down the rifle, and the bolt workmanship is nothing to be desired, that's for sure. Anyways - the spring for the ejector seems kind of short, but perhaps this is supposed to be like this to enable a little less tension as it cycles? Do these pics help at all?



The extractor seems fine - and it is biting that last round hard




 
Ah it's a 94........whole different ballgame. It looks to me as though you could use a new ejector spring, or just pull it out and stretch it back out as it should be. The last 3 coils against the ejector body appear to be bunched up and pushed together, this should not be.
Another problem you will find with 44 RM rifles is that the 44 RM was designed as a handgun cartridge and the manufacturers aren't real tight with their rim thickness tolerances. Given the way a handgun headspaces and extracts rim thickness isn't all that critical. However it is much more so in a rifle, you may find that the rim is a little fat for your extractor to boltface gap and the extractor is holding on a bit tight. You can remove it and take a few thou off the backside of the extractor with a file, this may help a lot.
 
c-fbmi said:
Ah it's a 94........whole different ballgame. It looks to me as though you could use a new ejector spring, or just pull it out and stretch it back out as it should be. The last 3 coils against the ejector body appear to be bunched up and pushed together, this should not be.
Another problem you will find with 44 RM rifles is that the 44 RM was designed as a handgun cartridge and the manufacturers aren't real tight with their rim thickness tolerances. Given the way a handgun headspaces and extracts rim thickness isn't all that critical. However it is much more so in a rifle, you may find that the rim is a little fat for your extractor to boltface gap and the extractor is holding on a bit tight. You can remove it and take a few thou off the backside of the extractor with a file, this may help a lot.
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I was wondering about the case thickness - I have only shot FC through it and you can see in the pic up above how some cases bite hard and others not so much. I polished the bolt and firing pin and put it all back together; the rifle went together really quickly - here I was not wanting to open up a lever and they are probably the easiest rifle to work on after all. I'm going to see if I can find a new ejector spring and see how that goes before grinding off the extractor a little. Thanks!

Any clues about the hard firing pin strikes?
 
I would think that the spring-loaded ejector should fling cases out vigorously, even if you cycle the action slowly.
As I recall my last 94 Winch. in .30-30 did so, even before the next round popped up.
I think that you need a replacement ejector spring.
It needs to be longer and stronger.

As for the primers, are these reloaded cartridges?
Maybe, some of the powder charges are different, and producing excessive pressure?
 
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Lonesome Donkey said:
I would think that the spring-loaded ejector should fling cases out vigorously, even if you cycle the action slowly.
As I recall my last 94 Winch. in .30-30 did so, even before the next round popped up.
I think that you need a replacement ejector spring.
It needs to be longer and stronger.

As for the primers, are these reloaded cartridges?
Maybe, some of the powder charges are different, and producing excessive pressure?
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No reloads - I have shot one and a half boxes of Federal AE 240g hollow points through it - and the last 20 primers were almost punctured right through. I'm going to look at picking up a new ejector spring. Thanks
 
I had a 94 in 44 Remington Magnum, was not impressed with it as I found the stamped lifter poorly made for a cartridge this short in an action designed for a longer cartridge.
I think C-FBMI is on the right track with rim thickness being a problem with the firing pin. Try some Remington.
 
gunrunner100 said:
I had a 94 in 44 Remington Magnum, was not impressed with it as I found the stamped lifter poorly made for a cartridge this short in an action designed for a longer cartridge.
I think C-FBMI is on the right track with rim thickness being a problem with the firing pin. Try some Remington.
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That el-cheapo stamped lifter always was a bad actor, in any of the 94s.
And, you are probably right. The .30-30 and .32 special rounds will feed much easier.
The pistol rounds, in a long action, need more guidance and positioning.

One thought, regarding the firing pin.
If the ejector spring is bad, perhaps the firing pin return spring is also (maybe from a bad batch of heat treating for the springs).
Perhaps the firing pin is able to travel forward with excessive force and protrusion, under inertia, because the spring is permanently compressed and doing nothing.
That might pierce the primers.
Just a guess and worth inspecting the spring.
 
One thought, regarding the firing pin.
If the ejector spring is bad, perhaps the firing pin return spring is also (maybe from a bad batch of heat treating for the springs).
Perhaps the firing pin is able to travel forward with excessive force and protrusion, under inertia, because the spring is permanently compressed and doing nothing.
That might pierce the primers.
Just a guess and worth inspecting the spring.
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I've had dozens of 94's apart, including the 44 mag and have never seen a firing pin return spring in any of them. The firing pins float inside the bolt, held with a lateral pin.
 
gunrunner100 said:
I've had dozens of 94's apart, including the 44 mag and have never seen a firing pin return spring in any of them. The firing pins float inside the bolt, held with a lateral pin.
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Yup - no spring, the firing pin just floats. I will call a few shops tomorrow, see if I can hunt down an ejector/spring/roll pin
 
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