Winchester 94 barrel pitting

[ShawnRich]

Further to my other questions about gunsmithing on other threads ...

How does one know when a barrel is pitted too bad, on the exterior, to put any work into the rifle? I have always kind of wanted a 30-30 Winchester (as everyone, apparently..;-) ) and ended up with 3 Model 94's in an estate purchase. Before you get too excited, they are all 1964 or after, 2 are complete, one might need some parts (hence my interest in gunsmithing)

But these have pitting on the barrels exterior. The bores look good with a cursory check (and I guess my next question would be "How do I know they are safe to fire?" ) but wondering how much pitting can be resolved with sanding and reblueing before a barrel is 1- too ugly or 2 -just unsafe? I know pictures would help but hesitant to post them yet.

For now, is there a rule of thumb? If anyone with experience in this area wants to PM me, we can discuss. The rifles are in rough shape, by my standard but the actions in two seem to work fine. The third, I have not checked. This guy seemed really hard on stocks! All of the rifles I got need stocks. They would be great projects with someone with experience but for me, they are either learning projects or well, another questionable investment..;-)

I saw another thread on rebarreling a Win 94. Not sure, being 64's (yes, the serial number, as I interpret it, puts 2 them them right in to 1964 and one 1991) if it would be worth it so wondering if I should just consider them wall art (which my wife would not share the thought) or actually fix them up. At the end of the day, I would really like to just own one Win 94. I am not a collector.

Thoughts?
Thanks
Shawn

 

[45C]

View attachment 553045View attachment 553042View attachment 553044View attachment 553043I recently bought one off the EE for $200 and it was rough, but a good shooter.
Barrel was pitted,tube had some rust,receiver had all bluing wore off,name etched int bottom of the receiver and the varnish was peeling off the stock.. lol

So I bought it to my buddy ,who cleaned,sanded,reblued ,and oiled the stock.

Looks much better now. An honest shooter.
I think he had 20+ hrs into it.

I’m sure it could get a lot more expensive, depends on far you want to go with it.
Thankfully we help each other out.

 

[ShawnRich]

45C, that looks good to me. Kind of similar to what I have (I mean, with a bit of work on my part) If I could end up with that, I would be happy. But the barrel looks much better than mine. I will post a photo. Hard to get input when others cannot see what I am asking. I know....

Thanks for the input. It is encouraging.
Cheers,
Shawn

 

[ShawnRich]

Since I realized I am asking for input when photos would really help, here are some of the barrel pitting I am talking about.

 

[CLW .45]

I suspect that the pitting is not too much if one can place the barrel slightly off horizontal with chamber slightly below muzzle, pour a few BB’s into the muzzle, and have them all roll out the chamber rather than remaining in the pits.

Mind you, if all else looks right, I just fire a few shots at a hundred yards.

If the group is six inches or less, I’m happy.

 

[45C]

A lot of it is just elbow grease, which you can do yourself.

Using the correct sandpaper,steel wool etc.
You can only get rid of so much pitting, but the bluing makes it barely noticeable.

Getting good rebluing products is the problem, I think.

 

[45C]

Since I realized I am asking for input when photos would really help, here are some of the barrel pitting I am talking about.

View attachment 553047

View attachment 553048

That top barrel looks like toast.
Maybe the bottom one is salvageable? Is it the 64 ?
I think if everything works, I’d fire it.

Wood looks good to.

 

[45C]

Got a picture of the other one?
The one from the 90s

 

[tiriaq]

Barrels with that amount of pitting can be readily restored. Except - the front sight ramp is permanently attached. Probably spot welded in place. That makes it a bit more difficult.
The easiest way to clean up pitted barrels is to spin them against a belt sander. The surface must be dressed down below the deepest pit.
A barrel spinner holder can be made. Basically a bar with two brackets carrying bearings and brass centers. The barrel is mounted between the centers and brought into contact with the belt sander. The sander will spin the barrel. Work back and forth, evening out the cut. Switch to finer grit belts. The barrel can be brought up to a nice polish.
Or, mount the barrel in a lathe, cover the lathe bed to keep grit off, and belt sand.
Of course the barrel can also be draw filed, and bootblack polished with strip emery paper.
If I were doing the one with the ramp, I'd remove the ramp, polish the barrel, then reinstall it.
Obviously, the barrel needs to be removed from the receiver.
The magazine tube can be polished the same way.

 

[ShawnRich]

In the previous post, the dark brown one is 1990-91 . The other two are 1964

 

[tiriaq]

That broken tang is a problem. I'd break that one for parts.

 

[ShawnRich]

Barrels with that amount of pitting can be readily restored. Except - the front sight ramp is permanently attached. Probably spot welded in place. That makes it a bit more difficult.
The easiest way to clean up pitted barrels is to spin them against a belt sander. The surface must be dressed down below the deepest pit.
A barrel spinner holder can be made. Basically a bar with two brackets carrying bearings and brass centers. The barrel is mounted between the centers and brought into contact with the bolt sander. The sander will spin the barrel. Work back and forth, evening out the cut. Switch to finer grit belts. The barrel can be brought up to a nice polish.
Or, mount the barrel in a lathe, cover the lathe bed to keep grit off, and belt sand.
Of course the barrel can also be draw filed, and bootblack polished with strip emery paper.
If I were doing the one with the ramp, I'd removed the ramp, polish the barrel, then reinstall it.
Obviously, the barrel needs to be removed from the receiver.
The magazine tube can be polished the same way.

Well, that sounds kind of interesting! I feel with the depth of the pitting, that more damage might be done taking it down to the outside diameter that is required to remove the pitting. I know I have nothing to lose but how much material removal is too much?

I think I saw a thread on barrel removal on these models (or a you tube?). Difficult? I have never removed any barrel before (but this could be a first...) I would guess I would be making some tools.

As to spinning the barrel, I have a lathe so that might be the way to go, although the grit would be a concern. Your "barrel spinner" suggestions sounds appealing. Are you saying a bar ie rod, just under .300 but then with two centers on it? Pardon the crude "Paint" image but is the attached kind of what you are suggesting?

 

[tiriaq]

No rod. Centers in the bearings. Don't lose the barrel when it is spinning...
I have mounted centers in skateboard wheels. Hold the wheels with the barrel between the centers. The barrel with rotate rapidly - don't lose it - it will fly away.

Often a 94 barrel can be removed using the rope trick.
Hold the receiver in padded vise jaws just behind the receiver ring. DON"T CRUSH IT.
Double a length of nylon rope and wrap it around the barrel. Put a strong wooded bar through the loop. Pickax handle, etc. Use the handle to wind the rope tighter and tighter - like a strap wrench. Usually the parrel can be popped off. On the underside of the barrel, make a prick punch mark on receiver and barrel so the barrel can be reinstalled to index.
A proper receiver wrench and barre vise are better and safer

Sanding and polishing will not remove enough steel to be a problem. Probably lose the markings, though.

 

[ShawnRich]

No rod. Centers in the bearings. Don't lose the barrel when it is spinning...
I have mounted centers in skateboard wheels. Hold the wheels with the barrel between the centers. The barrel with rotate rapidly - don't lose it - it will fly away.

Often a 94 barrel can be removed using the rope trick.
Hold the receiver in padded vise jaws just behind the receiver ring. DON"T CRUSH IT.
Double a length of nylon rope and wrap it around the barrel. Put a strong wooded bar through the loop. Pickax handle, etc. Use the handle to wind the rope tighter and tighter - like a strap wrench. Usually the parrel can be popped off. On the underside of the barrel, make a prick punch mark on receiver and barrel so the barrel can be reinstalled to index.
A proper receiver wrench and barre vise are better and safer

Sanding and polishing will not remove enough steel to be a problem. Probably lose the markings, though.

Mmmm....
Here is a photo of the #3 which I think is the one you referred to as the one with the broken tang? I placed the stock in the first photo to show it complete but that might have been misleading. But, again, being new, I would have to compare the 3 to each other and then the parts diagram to know what I am looking at.
Looking at the 3 rifles, I am wondering if the #3 barrel, being much less pitted, would be a better candidate to refurbish...? Up till now, have not looked too hard at them.

I am only, really, starting to research now for this (these) projects.
Thanks for the input! Exactly what I need!

Shawn

 

[ShawnRich]

I suspect that the pitting is not too much if one can place the barrel slightly off horizontal with chamber slightly below muzzle, pour a few BB’s into the muzzle, and have them all roll out the chamber rather than remaining in the pits.

Mind you, if all else looks right, I just fire a few shots at a hundred yards.

If the group is six inches or less, I’m happy.

I could try that. I don't think the bores are so bad as to have enough pitting as to stop bearings from falling out.... But it might be an eye opener for me to try!

I don't have a bore scope small enough but that would be ideal.

Thanks for the input

 

[tiriaq]

Mmmm....
Here is a photo of the #3 which I think is the one you referred to as the one with the broken tang? I placed the stock in the first photo to show it complete but that might have been misleading. But, again, being new, I would have to compare the 3 to each other and then the parts diagram to know what I am looking at.
Looking at the 3 rifles, I am wondering if the #3 barrel, being much less pitted, would be a better candidate to refurbish...? Up till now, have not looked too hard at them.

I am only, really, starting to research now for this (these) projects.
Thanks for the input! Exactly what I need!

Shawn

View attachment 553056

Yes, the tang is snapped off the receiver. Strip the rifle for parts. Welding a post '64 cast receiver is problematic. I have silver brazed the repair with a plate added under the joint to reinforce it.

 

[tiriaq]

That would be a good one to use to learn how to remove a barrel.

 

[ShawnRich]

That would be a good one to use to learn how to remove a barrel.

Great idea! But...would it be reasonable for me to be considering putting that barrel on the other 1964 model? I think that would be getting into more serious gunsmith stuff so being one at the bottom of the learning curve, a little much? Maybe take it off but then have someone else install? We have lots of hobbyist gunsmiths in my area but no one official anymore that I know of. They have, unfortunately, retired.

I think I would make the tools required to do it. I checked out some videos on line and the actual tools don't look too complicated. I think less chance of damaging the guns further if I have a more sound set up.

Thanks again tiriaq!

 

[Potashminer]

In a recent post about these Win 94's is mentioned that many pre-64's will index - so barrel snugs up to receiver to correct headspace with sights at top dead centre. Is apparently not so certain on post-64 - maybe one barrel made for that one receiver - attempt to seat that barrel on another receiver without indexed barrel threads ends up with the sights about anywhere?? Can get into some fun to get both head space correct and the sights at top dead centre, if the barrel tenon threads are not indexed. Becomes complicated for alignment of the extractor slot, as well, I suspect?

I ran into that on a Rem 788 here - on third barrel that I tried, I finally got about absolute minimum for the GO gauge, with the factory chamber, and had to settle for the sight holes to be a few degrees off of top dead centre - the other two barrels were not even close! A "real" gunsmith would have trimmed the barrel shoulder to get sights to top dead centre, then re-chambered it, but I do not own the appropriate chamber reamer to do that.

Thinking - a "real" gunsmith would likely prefer not fuss around with take-off barrels in the first place ...

 

[tiriaq]

I made my flat sided receiver wrench from two pieces of 1"x1" bar stock. Drilled for a pair of half inch bolts. One side threaded, other side 1/2" holes. Turned end of one piece of bar stock to fit inside a pipe. Or, just leave one piece long enough for leverage. Clamp on receiver with a couple of shims, barrel in barrel vise, and turn the receiver off the barrel. I've used the wrench on flat sides like '94s, Ruger 1s, even on M-14 receivers (on top nd bottom flats).
Made my barrel vise from two pieces of 1 1/2" bar stock, bored for 1 1/2" split aluminum bushings, two 7/8" clamp bolts.
I have pulled 94 barrels using a big machinist's vise and the rope trick as described above.
The receiver on that rifle is already spoiled, good one to practice on.
I have had good luck with 94 barrels indexing, top eject to top eject.
Most extreme example was a barrel from a commemorative with a broken tang going onto an old one with 4 digit serial number. Indexed nicely.
If the barrel doesn't index and headspace, correcting these issues gets really complicated. If it works, fine. If it doesn't...

I think you have some great project pieces there. If you have to pay a gunsmith to do the work, plus round trip postage, might not make sense. Too many billable hours.

Where in ON are you located?