Woodleigh Load gone to sh!t in 7mm08 Kimber

WhelanLad

WhelanLad

CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Rating - 0%
0   0   0
Location
Australia AU
So long story short, ive been playing with REM corelokt ULTRA bonded projies of late - using the same load i used for Woodleioghs, both 140gr projectiles, both a very similiar shape, so much so i had to pull one as i couldnt determine if it was a PPSN or a CLUB......... seriously LOL.

however i believe i had a muck up of Throwing from the powder hopper, direct into Cases one evening an then potentially 'mixing' up these loads with another Batch of laoded PPSNs............. i found that there was often a big flyer to the LEFT.. inconsistantly assuming due to the mix up-

Some groups would be left, so i would adjust, an then next group weather that day or the following time i got out, would be OFF again to the Right--

thats when i started playing with the CLUBs an got a Zero with a load that showed promise-- Set the Zero and went about dial / drop confirmations out to 450 / 500 meters... confirmed this a few times but would come back to the PPSN load and it would be off Left almost most times.

i decided to shoot the lot of the laoded PPSN with my partner, an we both had shocking groups often LEFT and often 3-4 inches apart-- (sounds like inconsistant powder charges? )

Today i loaded up again , using my original recipe FC brass (loaded in excess 6-7 times or more) and 40GR AR2208 /Varget , 69mm tip to tip, with FED 210 primers -- read as original. 140gr WOODLEIGH load.....

i also loaded up in FC brass, the 140gr CLUBs with above recipe............ x5 rounds to test POI between these 2 Loads..

aswell as the CLUB load being RP brass, WIN LRF , 40gr 2208 & 69mm tip to tip. -- this load seems to be fairly decent around an inch or just under --


Results were alot of Horizontal dispersion with Woodleigh load- first being Left, rest being on the money but 1 inch apart (total 3 inch group)
the 5x FC/CLUB load were all the same vertical, first 3 about an inch but then later shot last 2 with a rather warm barrel an they went horizontally a inch or so across the other side of X....... (possibly heat barrel and or a different hold/rest)

i fired one RP/CLUB load and it was bang on in the centre at the same elevation as majority of ALL the rounds.....

i do believe the kimber montana takes a bit of learning with holding and having pressure the same on each shot or it will send them accordingly... i am trying to keep this under wraps but feel a fair bit of my Horizontal issue is the cheek weld and Wrist hold pressure...................... what say you?


failing this the PPSN load in FC brass could potentially have Case hardened ?? with so many reloads? i know primers slip in pretty easy compared to the new brass... tension seems ok but perhaps this has some issue on the accuracy now?
an what about seating - will this throw them around or is it likely a neck tension issue? or both?


lopng post, figure i would throw this out an see what you might pick out

thanks

may add photos soon in week
 
From your description, you have not tried any annealing to the case necks - is likely what I would try. From other on CGN, do not need machine to do - can do with plumber torch or even a lit candle - hold brass in fingers - hold about half way between shoulder and case head - and rotate base of neck at tip of inner flame - until too hot to hold - then drop case in bucket of water or onto soaking wet towel - idea is to STOP the spread of the heat down the case. Is about nothing to loose, and really no cost - just your time, and possibly scorched fingers ...
 
Last edited:
I stopped using FC brass because I was having issues, it wouldn't chamber in my precision or 2 hunting rifles consistently, I couldn't close the bolts or if I could I couldn't open them and had to beat them open.
Weigh your brass and bullets to make sure they are close to the same. Bullets are usually really close, brass on the other hand can vary quite a bit and that will alter how the powder expands and how much pressure is created.
A full length size may help and annealing could change up neck tension and be a bit more even.
You could even have a bit of a carbon ring forming in you chamber that one round is more sensitive to.

That's where I start/ed when I have issues. I weigh all my brass, I run WIN and Hornady Match now and don't have any issues.
 
scope is a leupold vx2 3-9x40 thats had a dial put in it- NZ origin



All replies noted.


most likely shooter error? but will see where i get too
 
How much time between shots? Are you letting the barrel cool? Notice any metal rubbing on the stock? Same weather conditions each time? Mounting the rifle the same way each shot?
 
OP - not sure if you have done much case annealing - what I described above involving open flame - is done on an EMPTY CASE, with NO PRIMER - is NOT done to a loaded case. I have not done a lot of it - so I am not sure if it makes difference to do before or after sizing the case - various acquaintances have convinced me to do that annealing every time I reload a case - another suggests every third time, still another suggests every fifth time. As mentioned in post above, that assumes the mechanicals are all good - screws snug (action screws to stock, bases to receiver, rings to bases, caps to rings, etc.), bore is cleaned, and so on.
 
I would suggest that you anneal some brass and then size it.
This might fix your problem, if not then try a different scope, eventually you will get to the bottom of your problem.
 
"I do believe the kimber montana takes a bit of learning with holding and having pressure the same on each shot or it will send them accordingly... i am trying to keep this under wraps but feel a fair bit of my Horizontal issue is the cheek weld and Wrist hold pressure...................... what say you?"

I have a couple of Kimbers. One is chambered for the 270 Winchester and the other was ordered by the previous owner chambered for the 7x57 Mauser.

I had issues developing loads for both rifles.

The inletting on both stocks was OK but not tight enough IMHO.

I glass-bedded both receivers into the lovely stocks and things improved immediately, to the point accuracy didn't change on a whim.

Neither of these rifles would be considered "tack drivers" but with loads they like, tailored to the twist rate of the bore, they are very acceptable for hunting accuracy out to 300-350 yards, which is about as far as I'm willing to shoot at an animal.

I ended up lapping the bore on the 270 Win chambered rifle. It was very smooth but fouled quickly, enough that after ten shots, the groups opened up quickly. That's not acceptable.

The lapping job roughed up the surface a bit and the fouling decreased to the point the groups didn't start to open until 30+ rounds.

I used the RED Diamond lapping compound.

Kimbers are lovely rifles, well made, and handle well if they fit the shooter, especially in the offhand position.

I like both of mine and intend to pass them on to my heirs.

On the other side of the coin, one of my shooting buds has a Kimber chambered for the 300WSM that is a "tack driver" with anything he feeds it. Handloads or commercial.

He likes Nosler bullets and it can be difficult to find factory ammo loaded with them.

He has developed a load with velocities almost duplicating the factory rounds he likes, and it's difficult to tell the difference between them when shooting.

Nice rifle.
 
BH...any particular brand of RED diamond compound ? Amazon stuff ? Or CGN dealer /local shop. Do you apply it with a bore brush..felt pellet system or jag/patch ?
I have a new Browning LR Max in 6.5 PRC that seems to "hang on" to the copper quite a bit. On several of the lands...more so out towards the muzzle end ( 6-8 inches back)
I've been using the blue bore paste and lots of tennis elbow to remove it...and that's after copper solvents have been utilized several times. Only 75 rounds thru it..all cup and core bullets. Nosler's, Hornady's...no all copper projectiles.

Patches come out clean...then the borescope says...NOT...lol..damn thing drives me friggen crazy !!
 
kevin g said:
BH...any particular brand of RED diamond compound ? Amazon stuff ? Or CGN dealer /local shop. Do you apply it with a bore brush..felt pellet system or jag/patch ?
I have a new Browning LR Max in 6.5 PRC that seems to "hang on" to the copper quite a bit. On several of the lands...more so out towards the muzzle end ( 6-8 inches back)
I've been using the blue bore paste and lots of tennis elbow to remove it...and that's after copper solvents have been utilized several times. Only 75 rounds thru it..all cup and core bullets. Nosler's, Hornady's...no all copper projectiles.

Patches come out clean...then the borescope says...NOT...lol..damn thing drives me friggen crazy !!
Click to expand...

I just wanted to very slightly "rough up" he surfaces. The Red Diamond Compound I have is a left over from where I used to work. It's an industrial grade compound that comes pre-mixed in a syringe.

It's not overly aggressive but you can still do a lot of harm if it isn't used with discretion.

I made up a tight-fitting felt plug to fit over the point of a Tipton cleaning patch jag. I ran it all the way through the barrel ten times, from the breech end.

The plug became looser with each pass but was still tight enough on the last pass to need some slight pressure on the rod to push it through.

Even the first pass with the plug didn't require excessive force to push it through, about as much as a tight-fitting regular patch.

It doesn't take a lot of passes to accomplish this, and I wouldn't have done it if everything else I tried didn't work. It was a "last resort only" fix or I would have either sold or re-barreled the rifle
 
What kind of velocity are you seeing? IME you will get accuracy just over 2800fps with 140’s and Varget.

40gn charge seems a little light. I typically used 42gn
 
kevin g said:
BH...any particular brand of RED diamond compound ? Amazon stuff ? Or CGN dealer /local shop. Do you apply it with a bore brush..felt pellet system or jag/patch ?
I have a new Browning LR Max in 6.5 PRC that seems to "hang on" to the copper quite a bit. On several of the lands...more so out towards the muzzle end ( 6-8 inches back)
I've been using the blue bore paste and lots of tennis elbow to remove it...and that's after copper solvents have been utilized several times. Only 75 rounds thru it..all cup and core bullets. Nosler's, Hornady's...no all copper projectiles.

Patches come out clean...then the borescope says...NOT...lol..damn thing drives me friggen crazy !!
Click to expand...

There might be several issues that you mention. If there is only 75 rounds through the barrel, it might not even be "broken in" yet? Is reasonably well accepted that, to a point, a barrel will shoot better as it sees more rounds - then after "too many", will start to see accuracy drop off. I had read some bench rest guys will swap out barrels after 2000 or 3000 rounds - not sure how many rounds through first, before they compete with it, though. And likely what they "swap out" would do fine for a normal "hunter" type guy for many life-times. Assumes all other mechanicals are as they should be - trigger, bedding, sight/scope mounts, shooter skill, etc.

If your patches are coming out clean, yet your bore scope view is showing copper in there, then whatever solvent that you are using was NOT dissolving that copper?
 
Potashminer said:
There might be several issues that you mention. If there is only 75 rounds through the barrel, it might not even be "broken in" yet? Is reasonably well accepted that, to a point, a barrel will shoot better as it sees more rounds - then after "too many", will start to see accuracy drop off. I had read some bench rest guys will swap out barrels after 2000 or 3000 rounds - not sure how many rounds through first, before they compete with it, though. And likely what they "swap out" would do fine for a normal "hunter" type guy for many life-times. Assumes all other mechanicals are as they should be - trigger, bedding, sight/scope mounts, shooter skill, etc.

If your patches are coming out clean, yet your bore scope view is showing copper in there, then whatever solvent that you are using was NOT dissolving that copper?
Click to expand...

Potashminer, if a barrel isn't shooting well by thirty rounds, at the most fifty, something is awry, either with the load or the barrel. Some folks say "Shoot it more and break it in"

IMHO, you're just lapping the bore the hard way by doing that and pushing your throat forward, while wasting ammo/time/cleaning products, etc.

I've only had to lap a half dozen barrels over 55 years of doing this and it isn't something I would recommend lightly.

I've used the method suggested by both guntech and leeper, which is a soft lead lap, poured in the bore, then embedded with an abrasive compound and run through the barrel. it works very well but can be much to aggressive for my ease of mind.

I suggested the very fine Red Diamond compound because that grade is extremely fine and you can't ruin anything with a dozen passes on a felt plug. What it does, is take the sharp edges on the rifling and remove any almost invisible burrs and almost imperceptibly dulls the polish.

There have been a lot of very well known smiths and match shooters who believe a barrel that is too smooth is will foul more readily than a barrel not quite as polished and will shoot better for longer strings.

I had a HBR rifle with a Shilen Select match grade barrel. The most expensive and precise barrel they make. Cut grooves and hand lapped to a mirror finish with variances less than .0003 inches for the entire length.

Fantastic shooter from the very first shot.

I did the normal break in system I use for "match" rifles.

Shoot two rounds and clean for the first ten shots, then five rounds and clean for twenty shots. After that, if the barrel settles down try a string of ten then clean and if it looks good, shoot a string of twenty to see if it will open up the groups.

This barrel never made it past ten rounds before the fouling built up on the sides of the rifling and top of the lands.

I contacted Nobby Uno about my dilemma and after asking me a hundred questions, he suggested I either fire lap the bore or find some RED DIAMOND GRINDING COMPOUND and told me how to make up the felt lapping plugs. It's easy. Get a piece of half-inch thick felt from an industrial supply store and punch out plugs with a round steel disc punch of the proper diameter.

He suggested trying five push-throughs, cleaning the rifle, and shooting it while at the range. I followed his advice and five passes didn't do enough but increased the number of shots that were accurate enough for match shooting. I wanted more because I wanted to be able to shoot more than one string at the targets before having to clean again and go through the fouling process if the barrel needed it.

I used the same plug to do another five passes and that did the trick. That rifle shot wonderfully for the next 1500 rounds, with very little cleaning needed while at a match. It shot every bit as well for another 900 rounds after cutting off the old chamber at the shoulder and cutting a new chamber to clean up the nitrited throat, leade, and worn rifling.

That barrel was removed after 2500+ rounds, reprofiled, and mounted on a Remington Model 7 action without any other work. Just turned it onto the receiver and tightened it properly and luckily, the headspace was fine. That Model 7 now resides in my Grandson's safe and he loves it.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top Bottom