Here's some pics of a buddies .45 serial # 72,7xx range.Was wondering about it's markings ie flaming bomb behind trigger guard and colt in middle of slide instead of rear as well lanyard ring on butt and mag....possible value?.....Thanx Harold
WWI Colt .45 markings?
- Thread starter mbogo3
- Start date
Here's some pics of a buddies .45 serial # 72,7xx range.Was wondering about it's markings ie flaming bomb behind trigger guard and colt in middle of slide instead of rear as well lanyard ring on butt and mag....possible value?.....Thanx Harold
My guess is that the receiver is a 1914 Springfield Armory unit. The serial number and the Ordnance Department symbol, the flaming bomb, indicate that. The slide is later, probably from a 1918 or 1919 Colt.
The mismatched frame and slide hurts the value a lot. If it had the original Springfield slide and barrel, it could be quite valuable. 1918-19 slides are plentiful and not worth a lot, especially without the matching frame.
Without seeing it in person or seeing more detailed pictures, it's hard to say for sure if it has had a refinish or not. It doesn't look like an arsenal rebuild, but it could be. Most likely, someone just put parts together to make a workable pistol. Either way, that might not affect its value much one way or the other. If it has been refinished, that would hurt its value.
It's still an interesting pistol with value. Drop me a PM if your friend wants to sell it.
The mismatched frame and slide hurts the value a lot. If it had the original Springfield slide and barrel, it could be quite valuable. 1918-19 slides are plentiful and not worth a lot, especially without the matching frame.
Without seeing it in person or seeing more detailed pictures, it's hard to say for sure if it has had a refinish or not. It doesn't look like an arsenal rebuild, but it could be. Most likely, someone just put parts together to make a workable pistol. Either way, that might not affect its value much one way or the other. If it has been refinished, that would hurt its value.
It's still an interesting pistol with value. Drop me a PM if your friend wants to sell it.
It also looks like it has an a1-era long spur grip safety swapped onto it. Hard to tell from the pictures, but the finish seems to be a good match from the frame to slide. I would suspect a re-finish, but I'm no expert.
Your pistol does have a Colt slide on it, but the gun itself was made by Springfield Armory in 1914. This is confirmed by the serial number and ordnance bomb.
A mint all original Springfield of that vintage might be worth a small fortune, but the gun has been permanently altered. I suspect it was re-built by the U.S. military out of spare parts (This is probably when your Springfield got the Colt slide and other non original parts) and then after the re-build it was refinished in parkerizing. There is no 100% way of knowing if it's a real arsenal rebuild but it looks legit to me, typical of what the U.S. had entering WW2. The early battles of WW2 that the Americans fought the M1911 was still much more common than the M1911A1, as production and distribution just hadn't picked up yet. Arsenal re-built M1911's like yours were very common in WW2 and even after. I have some questions about the authenticity of the grips, I would have expected typical brown plastic USGI grips after it got re-built, maybe someone wanted something more "authentic looking". I have a set of spare replacement keyes brown plastic USGI grips kicking around if you need/want them.
I would not alter this gun at all. I'm confident it's probably a legitimate arsenal re-built pistol, and although not nearly as valuable as an original finish and correct Springfield Arsenal M1911, it still has some degree of collector value. If you alter it or have it refinished at this point it can only damage the value in my opinion.
-Steve
Edit: looking at the small parts, I suspect the gun went threw arsenal during WW2. Like deadman mentions, some M1911A1 looking parts such as that grip safety. This is not uncommon in arsenal re-builds, some also have re-build stamps, and some don't.
Also, I think there are a couple others on here who might be able to provide some more info
A mint all original Springfield of that vintage might be worth a small fortune, but the gun has been permanently altered. I suspect it was re-built by the U.S. military out of spare parts (This is probably when your Springfield got the Colt slide and other non original parts) and then after the re-build it was refinished in parkerizing. There is no 100% way of knowing if it's a real arsenal rebuild but it looks legit to me, typical of what the U.S. had entering WW2. The early battles of WW2 that the Americans fought the M1911 was still much more common than the M1911A1, as production and distribution just hadn't picked up yet. Arsenal re-built M1911's like yours were very common in WW2 and even after. I have some questions about the authenticity of the grips, I would have expected typical brown plastic USGI grips after it got re-built, maybe someone wanted something more "authentic looking". I have a set of spare replacement keyes brown plastic USGI grips kicking around if you need/want them.
I would not alter this gun at all. I'm confident it's probably a legitimate arsenal re-built pistol, and although not nearly as valuable as an original finish and correct Springfield Arsenal M1911, it still has some degree of collector value. If you alter it or have it refinished at this point it can only damage the value in my opinion.
-Steve
Edit: looking at the small parts, I suspect the gun went threw arsenal during WW2. Like deadman mentions, some M1911A1 looking parts such as that grip safety. This is not uncommon in arsenal re-builds, some also have re-build stamps, and some don't.
Also, I think there are a couple others on here who might be able to provide some more info
How likely is it that an arsenal rebuild (mid-war or otherwise) would retain both dd grips and a lanyard loop mag? I sort of assumed that if a pistol was stripped down, it wouldn't be too likely that many matching parts would find their way back together. Also assuming that more than one pistol was being overhauled/refinished at a time.
Deadman; I think arsenal re-builds are really hard to verify 100%. It looks like the real deal to me. Maybe I am completely out to lunch though...it's not like we can compare to textbook examples like originals, and arsenal re-builds obviously have potential to be faked. I don't have any myself.
I doubt the grips are original. I just compared them to some authentic Springfield Arsenal DD grips on Scott Gahimers site and they don't look the same to me, but I didn't bother counting the lines. I'd bet after being rebuilt it had 1911A1 grips. The next owner probably took the brown plastic USGI grips off, and replaced them with a set of DD's, from who knows where. If it were mine, I'd be tempted to put a set of brown plastic USGI grips on it, but other than that I'd just leave it as is. As far as the mag, I believe lots of lanyard loop mags were still in use also. Strange coincidence though, and I can see where you're coming from.
Arsenal re-builds that I've seen on the net seem to consist of all sorts of mixed parts, some original to the pistol, some not. The armorer probably made do with what he had, take what still worked on the SA, add replacements from parts bin, and re-park.
Just my 2cents. I know there are a few others on this site who know more about arsenal rebuild M1911 and M1911A1, and hopefully they'll catch this thread soon.
-Steve
Also, for the OP, it would be nice to see more pics, of the barrel, close ups of any markings, maybe the backs of the grips, it could provide more hints.
I doubt the grips are original. I just compared them to some authentic Springfield Arsenal DD grips on Scott Gahimers site and they don't look the same to me, but I didn't bother counting the lines. I'd bet after being rebuilt it had 1911A1 grips. The next owner probably took the brown plastic USGI grips off, and replaced them with a set of DD's, from who knows where. If it were mine, I'd be tempted to put a set of brown plastic USGI grips on it, but other than that I'd just leave it as is. As far as the mag, I believe lots of lanyard loop mags were still in use also. Strange coincidence though, and I can see where you're coming from.
Arsenal re-builds that I've seen on the net seem to consist of all sorts of mixed parts, some original to the pistol, some not. The armorer probably made do with what he had, take what still worked on the SA, add replacements from parts bin, and re-park.
Just my 2cents. I know there are a few others on this site who know more about arsenal rebuild M1911 and M1911A1, and hopefully they'll catch this thread soon.
-Steve
Also, for the OP, it would be nice to see more pics, of the barrel, close ups of any markings, maybe the backs of the grips, it could provide more hints.
I could be wrong, but I would expect that an arsenal rebuild - especially if they refinished the pistol - would have arsenal markings. Also, an arsenal likely would have put WWII era grips on it at rebuild time. Arsenal markings might help document the changes made to the pistol and add collector value, although not nearly to the value of an all original pistol.
Does it have a WWI or a WWII barrel? It's very unlikely that any arsenal would have left a WWI barrel and a WWI mag in there. The WWI ammo was very corrosive and few barrels survived in good condition.
That said, it's all speculation without evidence. A lot of things can happen to a 1911 in a year, let alone in nearly 100 years.
Does it have a WWI or a WWII barrel? It's very unlikely that any arsenal would have left a WWI barrel and a WWI mag in there. The WWI ammo was very corrosive and few barrels survived in good condition.
That said, it's all speculation without evidence. A lot of things can happen to a 1911 in a year, let alone in nearly 100 years.
Some re-builds were marked, some were not. Serviceability was the main concern with re-builds. They may contain original parts and non-original parts. I've seem ones from the DCM sales come up on other sites exactly like this. I would also have suspected WWII grips and barrel, not to say this combination is impossible.
My speculation in this case is that it is probably legit. It is like you said just speculation, my opinion is based on the mix of parts, the parkerizing, and what looks like honest wear. I think someone probably changed the grips though. Also, who would take an authentic rust blue SA M1911, swap a bunch of USGI parts around with other USGI parts, and then parkerize it - hopefully the only bubba capable of that is the u.s. government
Unfortunately collectors books like Clawson's or the other M1911/M1911A1 resources don't seem to go into much detail about arsenal re-builds. Probably because they are difficult to determine authenticity, and that they aren't as valuable as originals, for a long time most were not really collectable from what I've read.
-Steve
You well might be right, Steve, in that it would be best to leave it as it is. To try and find a correct Springfield slide to match the frame would not be easy. Even if one did find a slide, the finish and wear would not match the frame. So it then would need refinishing. After all that, it still would be a refinished non-original pistol. Granted, the right shop can do an amazing job of recreating a pistol's former condition.
It's hard to tell what finish is on the gun. If it is an old cold blue finish, Bubba or the local gunsmith probably did that. If it is parkerized, an arsenal may have done it. One can also buy parkerizing kits and easily do that job at home. Either way, whether it went through an arsenal for rebuilding/refinishing or not, it's still an undocumented mixmaster. Recently, at least in the US, they say that arsenal marked mixmaster pistols may have a little more value than those without arsenal markings. But without those markings nothing can be proven and the selling price will reflect that. At least they didn't scrub off the USP and other markings as so often happened.
What makes the gun interesting is the frame, which one does not see every day. I still would like to know what barrel is in it if the OP can share that.
It's hard to tell what finish is on the gun. If it is an old cold blue finish, Bubba or the local gunsmith probably did that. If it is parkerized, an arsenal may have done it. One can also buy parkerizing kits and easily do that job at home. Either way, whether it went through an arsenal for rebuilding/refinishing or not, it's still an undocumented mixmaster. Recently, at least in the US, they say that arsenal marked mixmaster pistols may have a little more value than those without arsenal markings. But without those markings nothing can be proven and the selling price will reflect that. At least they didn't scrub off the USP and other markings as so often happened.
What makes the gun interesting is the frame, which one does not see every day. I still would like to know what barrel is in it if the OP can share that.
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Hi Rob,
Finding that record would be extremely unlikely even if we were 100% sure it was a re-build. Often, the only documented information available on 95% of these USGI 1911's is when it was shipped from the factory. I guess, pardon the lameness, like finding a needle in haystack.
-Steve
Bittermansbro
CGN frequent flyer
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- Calgary, AB
I am pretty sure that the original US Army technical manual guiding the refurb of 1911's doesn't specify anywhere that the grips would be replaced. My reader keeps crashing, so will have to check again later, but the documentation always refers to 'inspect for wear, cracks etc etc' replace if necessary. There was nothing I could see that said that they would be replaced if not in good serviceable condition. That being said....*shrug* I could go either way, although my gut tells me that they were changed/replaced outside of refurb.
Bittermansbro
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- Calgary, AB
Well that is a WWII Springfield Armoury replacement barrel from earlier in WWII.
