WWII Ammo Info - British .303

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sapper6fd

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So the girlfriend has an Enfield MK IV that was given to her by her grandfather. He also gave her two old boxes of British .303 which I think is from WWII. Its in what looks like its original packaging, and the casings are marked 1944 PI Z. Anyone know where its from, and if it is actually military issue for the soldiers in WWII? We have around 120 rounds of this stuff. I've told her not to fire it off just because of the historical value it may hold, and because it may not fire / hang fire due to its age.

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The ammo was made in Canada by Defence Industries in 1944. Based on your photos, they appear to be Mark VIIz cartridges (the "z" means they are loaded with nitrocellulose as opposed to cordite). This is standard military ball ammunition as issued to Commonwealth soldiers in WWII. The cases are boxer primed so perfectly reloadable and good brass. If the cardboard packages are opened (which it appears they are), the ammo loses appeal to most collectors. Are all the headstamps the same?
 
Each round is stamped the same yes. Unfortunately the boxes were opened - probably years ago by her grandfather.
 
Defence Industries made ammunition in 1942 (2 different headstamps), 1943, 1944 and 1945. I am told that 1941 ammo by them exists, but very little; I have never seen one.

The plant was a Crown Corporation with management and critical staff from the Dominion Cartridge Company (CIL). Thy used Dominion primers exclusively, so that means non-corrosive and non-mercuric! This is a GIANT step up from the stuff made by the Government's own ammo plant (headstamp DA) which, along with ALL other Commonwealth .303 ammo, was corrosive and mercuric both; the corrosive part ate your barrel and the mercuric part ruined your brass.

DI brass is, in my opinion, the BEST .303 reloading brass ever made. Rims are ALL at .063": absolute minimum problems.

Brass is getting old now (that one is older than me), so a careful annealing will do it a world of good.

Canadian plants submitted over 4,000,000,000 rounds of .303" ammunition for Inspection during WW2.
 
Defence Industries Ltd. (DI) did make .303 in 1941. There are at least two headstamp variations from '41.

Further, in 1942 DI also made only one lot of VIIIz (in addition to the two more commonly encountered VIIz headstamps). As the DI VIIIz had caused some concerns at the time, it was not made by again in Canada. As a result, this is quite a scarce variation to find today.
 
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PIAT said:
Yeah, then it isn't really collectible as it is.
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Probably someone would like it as it is old and in the original box. I wouldn't shoot it because it being somewhat collectable but not that valuable.

Maybe you can find someone who would give the the equivalent in modern ammo in a trade.
 
enfield303t said:
Probably someone would like it as it is old and in the original box. I wouldn't shoot it because it being somewhat collectable but not that valuable.

Maybe you can find someone who would give the the equivalent in modern ammo in a trade.
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Yep, that's a reasonable alternative if you can find someone.
 
I wouldn't trade or sell this stuff, nor would I fire it. Too much historical value to it.

My great grandfathers fought in WWII, both in the Canadian Army. My Grandfathers were in WWII, one Canadian Army, the other Canadian Navy. The military skipped a generation with my dad, but I joined the CF in 98 where I spent 5 years as a Combat Engineer. This stuff has a lot of value to me because of why it was made, who it was issued to, and what it may have seen so its remaining locked up.

Its good to know the history on it. Thanks for that guys
 
The headstamp progression for DI manufactured ammo was
DI 41 .303 VIIZ
1941 DI VIIZ
1942 DI VIIZ
1943 DI Z
1944 DI Z

All of which I have in my collection.

The Mark VIIIZ headstamp was
1942 DI VIIIZ

There is also a reported Mark VIIIZ headstamp from Dominion cartridge Co., but I have not seen it.
DC 41 303 VIIIZ

Of course, there is also the late Mark 8z made for the Rangers by IVI, "IVI 8Z 82".

With regrads to collectability, the "DI Z" headstamped ammo is still very common here in the UK and commands no collector premium. I am sure there must be plenty more in Canada.

Regards
TonyE
 
I took my Winchester P14 and M10 Ross to the range a while back and tried out a selection of ammo from around WWII and Korean conflicts. My best results came from Canadian manufactured WWII ammo.
I took both to the range because the producers of Museum Secrets wanted to do an episode about the Ross in WWI. I think that got canned because of the military red tape.
The military wanted me to give them my gun for the episode and sign a waver saying they wouldn't be responsible for any damages. Like that was going to happen.
I know a few guys that were weapons technicians and they would never touch my firearm.
I liked the P14 sights they weren't as finicky as the Ross. We had a great afternoon at the range and liked shooting the Ross but wouldn't have wanted to carry one as a service weapon.
 
That is excellent ammunition. Don't worry too much about the collectibility of it as there is a surprising amount of it still in sealed boxes here in Canada. Shoot it and enjoy.
 
PIAT said:
The ammo was made in Canada by Defence Industries in 1944. Based on your photos, they appear to be Mark VIIz cartridges (the "z" means they are loaded with nitrocellulose as opposed to cordite). This is standard military ball ammunition as issued to Commonwealth soldiers in WWII. The cases are boxer primed so perfectly reloadable and good brass. If the cardboard packages are opened (which it appears they are), the ammo loses appeal to most collectors. Are all the headstamps the same?
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Question

Did Canada ever make cordite powder or did it use nitrocellulose in all its ammunition, until now I didn't' know that this type ammunition was standard issue in Canada. I have British manuals that mention our American made .303 ammo was loaded with a double base ball powder and not to be used in machine guns. Just wondering because Remington/DuPont IMR powders today are made in Canada.
 
Canada made lots of cordite loaded ammunition. If it doesn't have a "z", its cordite. It will also have the 1/4" corrosive Berdan primer.
The nitrocellulose/cordite issue in machineguns was related to bore erosion and overhead fire. Erosion patterns varied with the powder type. Mixing the types didn't work well for this purpose.
 
In reply to TonyE, the headstamp progression for DI is as follows:

DI 41 303 VII Z
1941 DI VII Z
1942 DI VII Z
1942 DI Z
1943 DI Z
1944 DI Z
1945 DI Z

In addition to the 1942 DI VIIIZ (of which I have seen several variations, including Dummy).

Hope this helps. If others exist, I'd be eager to hear of them.
 
bigedp51 said:
Question

Did Canada ever make cordite powder or did it use nitrocellulose in all its ammunition, until now I didn't' know that this type ammunition was standard issue in Canada. I have British manuals that mention our American made .303 ammo was loaded with a double base ball powder and not to be used in machine guns. Just wondering because Remington/DuPont IMR powders today are made in Canada.
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Yes, lots of ammunition manufactured in Canada was loaded with cordite. Tiriaq is absolutely correct - if the headstamp shows a "z", this indicates nitrocellulose.
 
PIAT said:
Yes, lots of ammunition manufactured in Canada was loaded with cordite. Tiriaq is absolutely correct - if the headstamp shows a "z", this indicates nitrocellulose.
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It was stated in an earlier post that nitrocellulose ammunition was standard issue, so was nitrocellulose ammunition only used in machine guns as the British norm or did Canada issue nitrocellulose as standard issue in Enfield rifles. This is why I asked my first question as cordite was normal rifle ammunition and nitrocellulose only used in machine guns as per British regulations.
 
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