WWII BRITISH NO.4 MKI BAYONET CRUCIFORM BLADE W/ Frog and scabbard - Opinions Please

student of history

student of history

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Hello Gents,

I've recently been offered this British NO. 4 MK I cruciform bayonet and am wondering if any of you Commonwealth gurus could please offer some insight before I decide whether or not to purchase it. I'm primarily a USGI/German collector so my knowledge on these types of items is quite limited. What are all of your impressions of it? Do the markings seem to be authentic?

I appreciate the help!

-Chris















 
I don't have much information to help, but I do know you need to be very certain it is a mk1 bayonet, as a lot of them are fake, made from mk2 bayonets.

Mk1 bayonets are fairly rare and command a price according too the rarity.
 
"...as a lot of them are fake, made from mk2 bayonets..." Not many will bother doing that. The market, being primarily Canadian, is too small.
Curciforms, in any condition, are scarce. That one's in great shape. I'd buy the thing if it doesn't cost the rent/mortgage payment.
 
I appreciate the research Dyspnea, that's precisely why I posted this one for review. That said, the bayonet shown above does not seem to resemble that known fake which is discussed in the other thread. They are stamped in different locations, and in different fonts. In addition, the bayonet above is marked GMR SM.

I eagerly await for others to weigh in on this.
 
SM = Singer Machine. The Singer Sewing Machine company in Glasgow. They made the Mk. I bayonets.
It looks like the real thing to me.
 
I appreciate the research Dyspnea, that's precisely why I posted this one for review. That said, the bayonet shown above does not seem to resemble that known fake which is discussed in the other thread. They are stamped in different locations, and in different fonts. In addition, the bayonet above is marked GMR SM.

Upon doing some of my own research I found a scabbard marked in the same fashion with this as the description:

"No 4 Mk I S.286 = Vanden Plas (Eng) 1923"

I eagerly await for others to weigh in on this.
 
Number 4 Rifle was first termed the Number 4 in 1931. Prior to that, development models were the Number 1 Mark VI.

In 1923, Enfield was in the middle of the 2-year small run of SMLE Mark V rifles, which took the Pattern 1907 Mark 1 blade bayonet. The spike bayonet had not even been thought of at that time.

I think the description of your second scabbard is off, more than a bit.

(Before somebody jumps in and tells me that I am full of it and that the Number 4 was only adopted years later, I will simply point out that adoption means little when there is a war on. I have had a Trials rifle in my hands and it was marked as a Number 4 Mark 1, it was made at Enfield and it was dated 1931. Experimental rifles made in 1930 still were marked as SMLE Mark VI.)
 
I'm no expert on bayonets, but the markings on this one do seem oddly thin and messy. They appear to be poorly electric-penciled and all the Singer Manufacturing (SM41, 42, 43) parts I have seen on No4s were well and deeply marked with stamps. Also, the Royal Cypher "GR" with the crown was dropped very early on and I've never seen it on anything but pre-war trials rifles (No1 MkVI and No4 MkI) dated 1930-1935. If the markings were stamped, the stamp would be a lot better than this, so while I'm not saying it is not genuine, it is a bit odd. I would want expert advice and of course it would also depend on what the seller wanted for it. Lots of stuff has been faked in India and they could well be doing these as well.
 
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Hmm. You might be right. In the third photo, there is a diagonal smear at the base of the blade. Weld? Blade added?
 
Another one here that is "guaranteed" to be be genuine the seller says: ht tp://www.classic-firearms.co.uk/bayonets-and-edged-weapons.html The seller does warn of fakes however.

One here in the IWM that should be genuine! http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30000904

And another here: ht tp://www.ebay.com/itm/WW2-British-No-4-Mk-I-Cruciform-bayonet-with-its-correct-Mk-1-scabbard-/231037135829?pt=AU_Militaria&hash=item35cae2ebd5 Notice that it says "More than 10 available"! and the inconsistencies in the machining and the other marks.

You may have a winner, but of course with those electro-pencilled markings they must be an easy one to fake.
 
It should be marked S M C,not S M,maybe a manufacturing error.There was 75000 made so they're not as rare as seller's will tell you.There's actually a couple of manufacturer's of the No.4 MkII* that only made 75000 + 85000 that can be bought for $10-20.I have only one No.4 Mk.1 in my collection,it also has a serial number on it.

Todd
 
student of history said:
Click to expand...

This is the 'kill' shot for me.

More important than the cruciform itself; the markings.

When it comes time to sell, do you want to explain to the next potential buyer why the markings are so messy? Are they fake, modified, chiseled, I don't know - you need to find a expert of spike bayonets. But compared to the other originals I've seen this one is not very nicely marked, it's got a few questionable aspects.

Just my thoughts - I might buy this one if I found it in the woodwork for the average cheap price of a spike bayonet, but it's not one I would invest a lot of money into for my collection.

-Steve
 
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