your thoughts on brass

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throback

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Right now I am reloading once fired American eagle 223 brass and trying to develop a good load for my bolt gun. I have read posts declaring some brass good and some bad. Over the years devloping hunting loads I have not worried about my brass other than using the same brand when loading up a bunch for hunting or the range.

In .308 I've used IVI , remngton and assorted others with no ill effects. But if I want to develop an accurate, what do I need to know about brass ?
 
Kind of an interesting question. I've used many kinds of brass over the years and have had many thoughts about them too. I have found any name brand in bulk lots, e.g. Remington, Winchester, Federal, PMC, IVI etc., all right for doing most things. But, once I started trying for very good accuracy and/or doing any long range shooting, I found myself putting more time into these cases to get where I wanted to go. They can still do it, but I usually found myself culling out a bunch. I have found Lapua and Norma to be a cut above the rest. When I first used them I noticed the cases were very uniform in all respects and the flashholes were very clean, i.e. without a burr. They last well too. So, for most precision stuff I do, I use these brands. I don't want to say that I snear at the other types because I don't. In fact, I have had good experiences with all of them. I still use a set of PMC cartridges in my 06, for example, and they weren't rated well for quality at the time I bought them. In my 308 Sportco I used Federal Gold Medal, Norma and Lapua with interchangeable results. I'm using Remington brass in my 6BR, necked down from 7mm, for practice and so on, but I tend to use the Lapua brass for matches and for testing match loads. In the end it is only fair to say that I do have a preference for Lapua and Norma. Cheers! Fred
 
I think it largely depends on your definition of accuracy. I'm pretty happy with 1 MOA'ish (less than 2 anyway), so I wouldn't worry too much about brand, etc. If you're looking for half or better, it's all about consistancy. Separate by brand, then by weight within the brand, etc.
 
I guess I am looking for the best components for the best results that I can get from the bench, excluding improvements to the rifle itself which I see as a different issue.

Right now am using 50gr nosler bal tip, CCI sm primers and IMR3031 and accurate 2230. Until I track down some varget
 
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I use IVI brass and 55gr FMJ with 24.5 gr IMR3031. great results in both .223 savage guns. I have reloaded the brass up to 5x now and still no signs of stress. Winchester brass kept spewing the spent primers.
 
I have yet to find any real benefits in using any other brand over Winchester. The strongest US commercial brass and better then some Euro brands.

I shoot it in my 6.5 Mystic (308 Win), 6 Mystic (22/250 parent), 223. All do pretty darn good.

However, I do neck turn AFTER fireforming. I would neck turn any brand I buy even Lapua (there have been issues).

I bought some 223 Lapua brass for my 1 mile quest and found the brass to be so so. IN the end, I am using Win brass and my results speak for themself.

Best thing you can do is buy all from one lot OR check the case volumes. Don't bother weighing them as that doesn't tell you anything - except the cases weigh the same.

I trim, deburr the flash hole, chamfer inside and out the neck.

For sizing, I use Lee Collet neck dies and a Redding body die when they get a bit fat. For seating, the reg Lee die works just fine. I measure my runout to ensure I am making properly aligned ammo.

Then its just a matter of using bullets, powders and primers in a way that makes your barrel happy happy. Had great success with both Benchmark and Varget lit by CCI 450 or BR4. I am now using 450's as they are much cheaper, easier to find and don't give me any grief in the winter.

Jerry
 
Thanks Jerry

Varget seems to get lots of mention. I have a whole whack of AE brass from semi auto friends and from what I started out firing. I'll keep my eyes peeled for some winchester though. I am using a regular set of RCBS dies, so your die comments are helpful
 
I believe that Fed made AE brass. More then adequate and at normal pressures, very durable.

Just use what you have but since the brass is from varying lots, keep an eye on flyers. Mark the brass and if it tosses a shot again, cull it.

Comparing case volumes might be an idea if maximum accuracy is desired.

Watch your runout from the dies.
Jerry
 
Throback if you are going to reload for the max performance possible from your brass, you should follow mysticplayer advise on prepping brass very important.
When loading for benchrest hunterclass shooting we would take a 100 count bag of winchester brass throw out the ones where the primer pocket was not center another few that the brass could not be inside cleaned,usually 9 to 15 pieces load and fire them over chrono would end up with 15 to a max of 18 that would have same velocity and those would be the only brass we would use in matches and reload them with hand dies, neck size only right at range.
I can tell you I don't throw any Lapua brass, it is by far the best brass I have ever used.
If you are going to reload with a press I would suggest you buy Redding Titanium bushing dies and Competition seater.
All these powder will produce .250" groups with match bullets in a good bolt action gun. and a seasoned shooter,in no particular order Varget, H4895 VT 540 there are some other good powders Rl 7,748win,Benchmark, H322, H 335,but with small bullets 45 to 60, I only use 69gr sierras and up
good luck manitou
 
There is an interesting article in the April 08 Handloader magazine where the writer tested 5 manufacturers 223 brass with five 5 shot groups at 100 yards out of a Cooper Arms Phoenix rifle. In the end the best to worst overall average for the testing went:
1. Remington 0.444"
2. Nosler 0.475"
3. Norma 0.515"
4. Winchester 0.521"
5. Lapua 0.594"
All ammuntition was loaded exactly the same with new brass, identical components using Redding benchrest dies. It just goes to show that what is considered to always be "the best" is not so in every rifle.
 
Silverback said:
All ammuntition was loaded exactly the same with new brass, identical components using Redding benchrest dies. It just goes to show that what is considered to always be "the best" is not so in every rifle.
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And thus, the data is flawed. Every brand of brass, even between lots, varies to a number of areas including case volume, elasticity, annealing, sizing.

There is simply no way to pick one load, load into a bunch of brass and assume that most accurate will come out.

EVERY change in ANY component requires a new work up to find the best accuracy. Many times, the loads are similar but not always. Choosing someone else's pet load will likely not give best results.

I bet, if all these cases were used at their max potential through proper work up AND at SAAMI spec pressures, there would be little to no measureable difference between the brands of brass.

The rifle used simply isn't accurate enough to show a difference.

Also, brass life at SAAMI specs would have been very similar but Win and Lapua would show less chance of primer pocket loosening after maybe 6 to 8 reloads.

Until you start playing with rifles and shooters that can replicate groups in the 2's, much of the real finicky stuff is just lost in the noise of statistical error.

Jerry
 
quickload shows 300wm Nosler at 95.5gr case cap and Remington at 88.0gr case cap, with a max load on federal (aprox 64000psi) the same load in Remington brass would be aprox 80000 psi ! thats a massive difference and a dangerous one to boot !

you cant expect a load in one brass to act the same in another brand.
 
What do you plan on using the loads for?

I ask because, all too often guys only focus on 100 yard group size and then wonder why their bullets are keyholing at 1000yds or not expanding in game animals. Sometimes an added 200 fps will gain you more than 0.1 MOA smaller group size (in the grand scheme of things). And, as stated above, some brass is better suited to high pressure loads than others.
 
kombayotch said:
What do you plan on using the loads for?

I ask because, all too often guys only focus on 100 yard group size and then wonder why their bullets are keyholing at 1000yds or not expanding in game animals. Sometimes an added 200 fps will gain you more than 0.1 MOA smaller group size (in the grand scheme of things). And, as stated above, some brass is better suited to high pressure loads than others.
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Thats a good point. I want to shoot as far as possible in casual way. No competition or heaps of gear. 500 yds or more
 
mysticplayer said:
And thus, the data is flawed. Every brand of brass, even between lots, varies to a number of areas including case volume, elasticity, annealing, sizing.
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I would not say that the data is totally flawed, the author used a load that, with much testing, worked best in his rifle and with this load those are the results he got. His rifle is a commercial varmint rifle and not a full out custom target rifle so for it's intended purpose I would say that the results are not too bad with any brass tested, as you say most shooters couldn't be in the 2's with any rifle or load combination anyway, of course these results also enrage the brass snobs in this forum who religiously use the number five brand in the list.
 
Silverback said:
of course these results also enrage the brass snobs in this forum who religiously use the number five brand in the list.
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I think that comment shows a lot of ignorance of why people choose certain brands.

People get so hung up on 100 yards groups... its ridiculous sometimes. In disciplines like benchrest, that's fine and appropriate (group size is king). But it isn't the standard for all styles of shooting.

Frankly, I don't care if I'm getting a 0.150" (0.594 vs. 0.444) smaller group at 100 yards if its costing me 100's of fps in velocity. The added velocity will take more inches off my group at 1000 yards (because of wind drift, which isn't constant) than the 1.5" decrease in group size will. It will increase my probability of a first round hit more than the added precision will. That counts for more if you're using the round for hunting or shooting a discipline that doesn't allow sighters or follow-up shots.

Theres a lot more criteria to "the best" brass for some of us than just 100 yard groups at "whatever velocity makes them the smallest". Tell me, did he evaluate which brand could achieve the highest velocity before showing pressure signs? How may times the cases could be reloaded before the necks crack, primer pockets loosen or head separation signs start to show? I'm guessing not... Some of the brass in that list would fall apart in 2-3 loadings if pushed to the same level that #5 can deliver.
 
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kombayotch said:
I think that comment shows a lot of ignorance of why people choose certain brands.

People get so hung up on 100 yards groups... its ridiculous sometimes. In disciplines like benchrest, that's fine and appropriate (group size is king). But it isn't the standard for all styles of shooting.

Frankly, I don't care if I'm getting a 0.150" (0.594 vs. 0.444) smaller group at 100 yards if its costing me 100's of fps in velocity. The added velocity will take more inches off my group at 1000 yards (because of wind drift, which isn't constant) than the 1.5" decrease in group size will. It will increase my probability of a first round hit more than the added precision will. That counts for more if you're using the round for hunting or shooting a discipline that doesn't allow sighters or follow-up shots.

Theres a lot more criteria to "the best" brass for some of us than just 100 yard groups at "whatever velocity makes them the smallest". Tell me, did he evaluate which brand could achieve the highest velocity before showing pressure signs? How may times the cases could be reloaded before the necks crack, primer pockets loosen or head separation signs start to show? I'm guessing not... Some of the brass in that list would fall apart in 2-3 loadings if pushed to the same level that #5 can deliver.
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I see your point but again, this is not a 1000 yard heavy target rifle and this is not the precision rifle forum, the brass was tested in a 223 varmint rifle, 100 fps will not make any perceivable difference on a gopher out to 250 yards which is pretty much the maximum practical range for most shooters and the cartridge. Many people are greatly influenced by the opinions of others and will by brand X because it is "the best", often without ever even considering trying brands Y and Z. I have owned many firearms generally considered the best on this forum and sold them because they were not the best to me, also I still own a lot of less desirable firearms which I enjoy greatly. Snobbery does exist in all aspects of life including the shooting sports.
 
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