Zombies and Milsurps (ok, ok, historical human wave attacks)

cyclone

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Okay, so the story is this: history is littered with accounts of massed human-wave attacks that can really – with a nod to the above disclaimers – be considered zombie-like…:yingyang:

If you’ve not yet read Last Stand!: Famous Battles Against the Odds by Bryan Perrett, I highly recommend it. It contains synopsis and commentary about many military actions with which we are all pretty familiar, including those fought in sieges and on the open battlefield….:wave:

So, without further adieu, here’s the notion of this thread:

(1) Discuss a famous human-wave style attack (take your pick, from Camerone and Isandlwana to the Boxer Rebellion and Arnhem Bridge),

(2) Mention the milsurp firearms that would have been used (post pictures and discuss specifications if you can :D ), and

(3) Feel free to banter about tactics and strategy involved in the encounter.

And that’s all I gotta say about that….for now !...:evil:...
 
Had a Sergeant once who had to drink himself to sleep every night in order to get any rest at all. He had been involved in some of those in Korea and the memories would come back as he was dozing off. So he drank himself to sleep, woke up when the dead guys started coming for him..... and drank himself back to sleep. In the daytime he was okay and a damned fine NCO.

He had been a machine-gunner in the Canadian Army in Korea. They were using the M1919A4 Brownings in .30-'06, of course. One day, they had to move the gun 6 times because they could not get enough elevation otherwise to fire over top of the bodies piled up in front of the gun.

That is what you call REAL bad.

So many of those guys came back without a scratch..... that you could see. But the scars were so VERY deep.

.
 
So, without further adieu, here’s the notion of this thread:

(1) Discuss a famous human-wave style attack (take your pick, from Camerone and Isandlwana to the Boxer Rebellion and Arnhem Bridge),

(2) Mention the milsurp firearms that would have been used (post pictures and discuss specifications if you can), and

(3) Feel free to banter about tactics and strategy involved in the encounter.


The standard Wehrmacht platoon was built around its MG34 and MG42 guns. The guys had MP40s and K98s, but their main job was ammo mules. I knew an Eastern Front vet who said he'd hammered one Russian with his SMG only to have the bugger stand up and run some more. Hit him again and again. Finally he had a rifleman shoot the guy with his 8mm. He also said the "old machine gun" was well made but too slow to get every Russian when traversed. The "new machine gun" hit every Russian because of the higher rate of fire.
 
Had a Sergeant once who had to drink himself to sleep every night in order to get any rest at all. He had been involved in some of those in Korea and the memories would come back as he was dozing off. So he drank himself to sleep, woke up when the dead guys started coming for him..... and drank himself back to sleep. In the daytime he was okay and a damned fine NCO.

He had been a machine-gunner in the Canadian Army in Korea. They were using the M1919A4 Brownings in .30-'06, of course. One day, they had to move the gun 6 times because they could not get enough elevation otherwise to fire over top of the bodies piled up in front of the gun.

That is what you call REAL bad.

So many of those guys came back without a scratch..... that you could see. But the scars were so VERY deep.

.

Damn it is stories like that, that has always made me have nothing but the deepest respect for our service men and women.
 
Damn it is stories like that, that has always made me have nothing but the deepest respect for our service men and women.

It is a true shame that many were not taught about the Canadian effort in Korea :( ; what follows is a brief snippet of an account of the PPCLI on Hill 677 ...:wave:....can anyone even imagine No.4 Enfields going up against humn-waves of enemies intent on overrunning ?.....:eek:...

The first Chinese attacks were against Baker Company. The company's three platoons, with about 30 men each, were located approximately 200 meters to the northeast of our position. Because Baker overlooked the valley, it is likely that the Chinese considered it to have the most important strategic position. Able, Charlie and Dog companies were situated in higher isolated positions to the north and west of Baker company and further away from the river valley.

Although we were close to Baker company and could hear all of the violent battle noises, we did not, at that time, know about all of the hand to hand fighting that was taking place. Baker was being subjected to typical CCF tactics, including bugles and human waves. We fired hundreds of mortar rounds in support of the company, but we were not able to directly observe the results of our action. But we were very effective. For instance, Lieutenant Charles Petrie of Baker Company later recalled that on one occasion, as dusk approached, 6 Platoon reported that the enemy was forming up in a re-entrant and preparing for an attack. Our battalion 81 mm. mortars opened fire on this force and "decimated it." Somewhat later 6 Platoon fixed bayonets and forced the Chinese to retreat. Mortars are an extremely effective infantry weapon but bayonets can also be very persuasive under the right circumstances.
The next two days and nights are a blur in my memory.We frequently fired large volleys of mortar bombs in support of the rifle companies, and in particular Baker and Dog. After trying and failing to dislodge Baker company, the Chinese attacked Dog Company in large numbers. Lieutenant Mike Levy, the commander of Dog Company's 12 Platoon, initiated a mortar and artillery bombardment of his own position in order to stem the Chinese assaults.

We were told that we were surrounded and to expect an assault on our position at any time. The attack that we were expecting came in the evening of April 24th. We did not immediately notice their presence, but about 500 Chinese began to climb from the valley floor towards our location. They were advancing quietly in our direction and they were not signaling their approach with bugles and loud shouts as was their usual habit.

Lieutenant Hub Gray quickly took command of the eight .50 caliber machine guns that were mounted on our half-tracks. Whether by a stroke of genius, or as a result of sheer luck, these vehicles were located in a very favourable position for the purpose of confronting the advancing enemy. The machine guns were mounted on circular swivels and could be turned rapidly to any direction. Gray handled this critical situation efficiently and calmly. He waited until the leading formation of Chinese was only about 40 meters short of our position before giving the command to fire. The eight .50 caliber machine guns opened up and began cutting a bloody swath in the Communist ranks. I have often wondered by Hub Gray was never given any kind of recognition for his very significant and important action. At the very least, in my opinion, Gray should have been "mentioned in dispatches". Unfortunately, military awards are not always given in a fair and objective manner.

I was totally unaware of the approaching enemy until the moment that Gray opened fire. We were, as usual, doing defensive fire tasks for the rifle companies. As soon as we became aware of the Chinese in our vicinity, we turned our mortars around about 180 degrees, raised them up to an almost perpendicular angle, and began launching bombs on a rapid fire basis. Our mortar bombs travelled only about 100 to 200 metres and began landing in the midst of the Chinese.

It was a devastating slaughter. Jim Wall, a private in the Pioneer Platoon, described the scene as follows in Beyond The Danger Close: "Approaching our position in the dull light on night they looked like a bunch of ants groping their way up the hill. It is frightening watching them slowly ascend, and to realize that they are coming to kill us. When Gray orders the machine guns to fire there are masses of the fallen, dead and wounded. Those left standing grab what they can of their casualties and are running and tumbling down the hill heading for the river." On the following day one of our men went to the killing field, counted more than 100 dead Chinese, and then stopped counting. It is highly likely that many other bodies had been dragged away in keeping with Chinese practice.

The Battle of Kapyong ended very unexpectedly on April 25th and 26th. By that time our Mortar Platoon was almost completely out of mortar bombs. The rifle companies were also down to a few rounds of ammunition. Our food and water was almost gone. We were in a desperate situation, but for some reason the Communists did not continue with their attacks. However, the trails and roads leading to and from Hill 677 still appeared to be occupied by the enemy and Lieutenant-Colonel Stone radioed for help.
 
The greatest testament I have ever seen to the folley of the full frontal human wave attack is the Douaumont Ossuary at Verdun in France.

From Wikipedia:

During the 300 days of the Battle of Verdun (21 February 1916 – 19 December 1916) approximately 230,000 men died out of a total of 700,000 casualties (dead, wounded and missing). The battle became known in German as Die Hölle von Verdun (English: The Hell of Verdun), or in French as L'Enfer de Verdun, and was conducted on a battlefield covering less than 20 square kilometers (7.7 sq mi).

The Ossuary itself is estimated to contain the skeletal remains of over 130,000 axis and allied soldiers whose remains were not identifiable enough to merit separate graves.

In terms of milsurps, the French would primarily have been armed with the Berthier Modele 1907-15 and to a lesser extent the Mle1886-93 Lebel, supported by Mle 1914 Hotchkiss machine guns in fixed positions.

The Germans would have been using a mix of Gew98 and Gew88 rifles supported by MG08 machine guns, also in semi-fixed positions.

Verdun resulted in 698,000 battlefield deaths (362,000 French and 336,000 German combatants), an average of 70,000 deaths per month. It was the longest battle of the First World War, and possibly of all time. It was also very much an artillery engagement and involved the reduction of fixed fortresses using very large (305mm+) howitzers as siege guns.

Here's a 305mm Skoda Siege mortar as used during the battle:
skoda2.jpg


A 420mm Krupps Howitzer, also used at Verdun:
Krupp%20420mm%20Howitzer.jpg


The battle was so horrific, it was cited by Marshal Petain as his reason for leading the Vichy French government into collaboration with Nazi Germany in WW2. Petain commanded the Second Army at the start of the Battle in February 1916 and was present for the worst of the slaughter.
 
The Battle of the Somme-started June 1st, 1916.
The Britsh lost, by some accounts, 20,000 dead by noon. (The bloodiest day in British military history)
They were told to walk, not run, across No Mans' Land, with 80 pound packs, through enfiladiing machine gun fire.
The battle lasted until mid-November with approx. 1 million casualties all told.
A testament to the Donkey Generals.

Mil-surps-
LE No1 MK111
Vickers MG
K-88 and 98
Luger P-08
Webley, Colt, and S&W .455s
Maxim gun
Large amounts of buried explosives (mines)
 
Yes, the Somme. The Newfoundland Regiment was that little country's entire Army. They took 92% casualties in the first 20 minutes of the Somme.

At Regina Trench on October 1, 4th CMR "A" Coy took 100%. "A" Coy 5th CMR took 95% but they took the Trench and held it for 14 hours against a Brigade of Imperial German Marines. ONE COMPANY. The man who led them through 12 hours of that got a DCM and 2 holes in him; his first pension cheque (5% disability) arrived 56 years later. Sgt. (later Captain) George Dibblee.

The orders for Regina Trench were typed on the backs of superfluous copies of the Official Form of Will. Howzat for a morale-booster, huh?
.
 
[The orders for Regina Trench were typed on the backs of superfluous copies of the Official Form of Will. Howzat for a morale-booster, huh?


Some things change over time and some things don't. 3+ years ago we ran a CPX (command post exercise) for the troops in Edmonton as part of their pre-deployment training for Afghanistan. One aspect of this was having individual soldiers fill out the official form to designate the recipient of their Memorial Cross in the event that they were KIA. I know that they actually do this prior to deployment but I wondered about the training value in filling out a form.
 
Some things change over time and some things don't. 3+ years ago we ran a CPX (command post exercise) for the troops in Edmonton as part of their pre-deployment training for Afghanistan. One aspect of this was having individual soldiers fill out the official form to designate the recipient of their Memorial Cross in the event that they were KIA. I know that they actually do this prior to deployment but I wondered about the training value in filling out a form.

FWIW, the Memorial Cross paperwork (for up to 4? medals) has to be confirmed annually, but the CF30 Will and Survivor Death Benefit forms (which are for big cash to the estate) are at the member's convenience. Whose priorities are being looked after?

To Purple's comment, maybe the Chief Clerk realized he/she would have everyone on the nominal roll doing the annual admin review, and put the Memorial Cross form was just one thing on the list to be checked off. If just stuck in your mind because it seemed out of place.

The relatively neat and tidy battlefields of modern Afghanistan have absolutely nothing to compare to WWI.
 
this appears to be a painted over photo

You may be right that it's touched up. I think this might be the original photo:

bbmain.jpg


There were at least two variants - a cemented-in-place variant and a carriage variant.

obusier-de-420mm-gammagerat-krupp-01d.jpg


And here's the semni-permanent mounting arrangement for the 305 skoda (still in use by the German Army in WW2 - the last surviving example at that time):

fhfgtht.jpg
 
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