Recommend me a good, budget, antique status rifle for my first long gun?

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krprice84

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Hey guys, buddy is waiting on my PAL and can't wait to shoot though! He sent me this to post:

My uncle wants to take me and my daughter out on a hunt and suggests I try to find an antique rifle that i can use for now. get some practice in, and maybe even end up bringing it with me for the hunt!

I'm looking definitely at a centrefire rifle, as black powder looks to me to be a little too much hassle for me right now. In the future, i absolutely want to get a flintlock and probably a percussion cap rifle, but for now, the budget is tight.

I'm happy to reload for his rifle, as I have an antique Webley MkI and a Belgian RIC-pattern revolver both in .455 webley.

the 45-70 Gov't sounds like an awesome round and would make a great rifle to hunt with - plus it seems like it's a very commonly available cartridge with lots of brass and lots of data to reload for it, as well as the bullets being commonly available compared to some of the less common rounds. The .577 is just a little too big for my liking, unless there's a reason that it would be a great first rifle. I will obviously be reloading almost exclusively with him as, with no PAL yet, ammo is scarce. I know he can always wait for his PAL, but he's really antsy. We've both always liked the older guns anyways, so I figure why not start with one a little early.

Mods/Others, just to clarify, this is not a request for offers but a request for advice on what I should be looking for. Hope this is ok to post in this section - i figured it would be a good place to ask, but if not, please let me know and/or move the thread somewhere more appropriate. I just figured that since it's an Antique question, this would be a good place for it.

Thanks all!!!
 
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What's your budget?

I figure that unless you have around a thousand bucks to drop into the aether, yer pretty much not gonna get into the Antique game with a decent rifle in good shooting condition.

The low end of the pay scale gets you into a old Mauser (in .43) or a Rolling block from Tradex (in 12.7x44R) or a Snider (in .577). See the trend? Not 45-70.
You make up for the lower (relatively) price of the rifle, with the higher cost to feed it and load for it. Oddball brass, bullet molds, casting equipment, and expensive dies.

If you want/need a 45-70, I would say the Trapdoor Springfield would be the place to start looking.

Makes an off the shelf flinter look worth the hassle, dunnit?

Cheers
Trev
 
yea, sure does!

If i got an off the shelf flintlock, is that considered an antique (w/ no pal requirement)? that might be a good option, now that you put it this way!

The .43, 12.7x44R, or .577 - can you use other brass and form it, or is it pretty much just a no-go unless you make some or get lucky and find some? i don't mind buying the lead and casting and/or finding bullets online.... but the cases have to be something i can either buy or form myself from easily available brass.

sounds like you might be right about the flintlock.... those are all antique status are they not? even the repro's?

edit: oh and my budget - probably the $500 range for the rifle alone - obviously spending a little more on the rest of it. and i don't really care about condition TOO much... just has to be a shooter, don't care if the stock is repaired etc or the finish is crap... just want a halfway decent bore and a functioning action really, with a stock that will hold up, not neccesarily look pretty :) think i'm still way too low for a 45-70 antique status?

also, i do have my belgian RIC copy that i'd trade for one - do you think the value of that would bring me up to a 45-70 if i found the right person to trade with, or am i still way low? i paid just under a grand for the revolver, and it functions and has been shot by myself and the PO numerous times.... i figure it's gotta be worth what i paid

sorry for all the questions, and thanks for the help!!!
 
Flinters are antiques regardless of when made. Trap doors aren't. Neither is any lever action. Can't imagine why your uncle would tell you to buy an antique. Ammo for those few rifles that are antiques is horrendously expensive. If you can find any.
This is the important part of the stupid law.
"•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges (whether with a smooth or rifled bore), have a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine;"
 
sunray said:
Flinters are antiques regardless of when made. Trap doors aren't. Neither is any lever action. Can't imagine why your uncle would tell you to buy an antique. Ammo for those few rifles that are antiques is horrendously expensive. If you can find any.
This is the important part of the stupid law.
"•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges (whether with a smooth or rifled bore), have a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine;"
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read his op...he doesn't have a PAL...
 
Yup, he suggested i get an antique because he knew I didn't have my PAL yet and he knew I wanted to start shooting right away. He also knows I own two antique revolvers and am familiar enough to be willing to work within the confines of the antique system we have here (convoluted system, i might add!).

So it looks like, unless i get real lucky and find a 45-70 for cheap, i'm going to end up with a flintlock... there's a 38-55 on the boards now... not sure if it's prescribed or not though - looks to be a decent enough gun, and that ammo can be found, albeit of course not cheaply (although i'm obviously not expecting cheap ammo, just wanting something that is at least available, as once i have a hundred or so cases, i can reload them myself without a problem)
 
You can get a good used Lyman or Thompson/Center flintlock for less than your $500 budget or even a new Traditions flintlock and with a few accessories you'd be good to go hunting.
 
problem with just about any antique especially rifles in .45-70 you pretty much have to reload with black powder or light smokeless loads. the big reason to stay anyway from factory .45-70 loads is most are made for modern lever guns that can take a lot more pressure compared to a antique trapdoor(witch is weaker then a modern made trapdoor). also you must know that antique are not cheap a lot of them need a custom mold and or custom reloading dies like the martini henry or snider if you get either one stay away from lee dies they over work brass as they are made for the smallest chambers in their calibers. also the snider will like a .585"-.600" round ball in pure lead or a .585"-.595" conical(length/weight will depend on twist rate). your best bet buy a crossbow or shoot/hunt with arms reach of someone with a PAL
 
Yea I'm not really into bow and arrow anymore, I like the smoke, power, and sound of guns much more now than when I was younger. I appreciate bow hunting for sure, just not my gig.

Regarding the expensive or hard to find dies and brass, that's why I wanted to stay away from the snider tbh. I think that the flintlock sounds great right about now unless I get lucky and find a decent antique in 45-70 or similar. I guess an antique modified to shoot 45 colt would be ok to yes?

And ideally of course I'd just hunt with a pal within arms length but realistically this just isn't likely or doable. Plus that means I can't get in any practice beforehand
 
krprice84 said:
Yea I'm not really into bow and arrow anymore, I like the smoke, power, and sound of guns much more now than when I was younger. I appreciate bow hunting for sure, just not my gig.

Regarding the expensive or hard to find dies and brass, that's why I wanted to stay away from the snider tbh. I think that the flintlock sounds great right about now unless I get lucky and find a decent antique in 45-70 or similar. I guess an antique modified to shoot 45 colt would be ok to yes?

And ideally of course I'd just hunt with a pal within arms length but realistically this just isn't likely or doable. Plus that means I can't get in any practice beforehand
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I doubt you will find a antique rifle in .45 colt and if you modified one you would need a complete rebarrel as rifles in say .45-70 use a .457"+(most antiques using a .460"-.465") bullet where the .45 colt uses a .454" bullet plu one in .45 colt would mean you would have to stay within bow range for hunting. id just wait as you don't sound experienced enough with firearms to reload as it would be needed for anything in .45-70 as far as I know only trapdoor's were chambered in them unless you find a re barreled martini or rolling block the martini would take mild factory .45-70 no problem. oh and as far as using other brass in a .43 mauser it can be done but very advanced .50-70 brass can be used in 12.7x44r .577 snider you can use 24ga shot shell brass but again bullets are not common and lee dies suck
 
sunray said:
Flinters are antiques regardless of when made. Trap doors aren't. Neither is any lever action. Can't imagine why your uncle would tell you to buy an antique. Ammo for those few rifles that are antiques is horrendously expensive. If you can find any.
This is the important part of the stupid law.
"•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges (whether with a smooth or rifled bore), have a bore diameter of 8.3 mm or greater, measured from land to land in the case of a rifled bore, with the exception of a repeating firearm fed by any type of cartridge magazine;"
Click to expand...

Your wrong, again. Original trapdoors (all of them) are antiques. reproductions aren't
 
Snider rifles are fairly easy to build ammo for, I think its a easy rifle to load for if your just starting out with blackpowder cartridge rifles.

Of course I would always ALWAYS prefer a good flintlock any day of the week just because I really like them more then my percussion arms, black powder cartridge arms and far more modern milsurp arms.

A flintlock is a beautiful thing.



 
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Tj, that's exactly what Sunray said - flinters are classed as antiques regardless of when they were made, trapdoors aren't because new repro trapdoors aren't. He is right, you read his post wrong. To the OP, there's no way you're going to find a shootable or even unshootable antique in .45-70 for your budget. Patience is a virtue, but so is shooting flinters . . . especially smoothbores.
 
gabrielguitars said:
Tj, that's exactly what Sunray said - flinters are classed as antiques regardless of when they were made, trapdoors aren't because new repro trapdoors aren't. He is right, you read his post wrong. To the OP, there's no way you're going to find a shootable or even unshootable antique in .45-70 for your budget. Patience is a virtue, but so is shooting flinters . . . especially smoothbores.
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I read it the same way. Poorly phrased.

Age, bore diameter, no magazine feeds (multi-barrelled repeaters, like a double rifle or a drilling, provided the shotgun barrel or barrels qualify too, ARE 'antique').

Yep. But never say never. Persistence and luck can sometimes make up where otherwise a bucket of money is needed. I have seen Flinters go through the EE for as little as $125. Know what stuff is worth, be ready when you see it, and you could get the deal.

The choice of 45-70, which IS still commercially available and easy enough to reload for, puts you into a fairly competitive market, and duking it out with all the others that do not want to stray too far down the path of old arms, oddball calibers, and brass that you cannot get from almost anywhere.

A 38-55 in a modern gun typically has a .375 bore. Older guns used a slightly larger bore, usually...sometimes...sorta. Each is an individual in it's own right. But 8.3mm is 0.326772 inches, according to Google, so... qualifies. As long as it's a single shot.

You will be hard pressed, I think, to get into any antique shooter for under a $K, but it can be done, if you were to say, scrounge up a decent .375 or .45 barrel at a gun show, buy a rolling block and pay to have it installed, it would be pretty close. Blown out 30-30 brass can be used in a 38-55. Cheap! Just a thought.

Cheers
Trev
 
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You can still get into a .43 Mauser reasonably, and they will do anything a .45-70 will do, being actually a .44-77-386: .446 slug, 77 grains of Black powder (or 29 of SR-4759), 386-grain slug.

I got my first Kar. '71 back when I was in high-school and ammo was at the hardware store, $3.65 a box, paid $3 for it. Got another one a couple years ago, shelled out $100. Both have been chopped, both have good bores. And then there is the '71 Jager rifle that got rescued from a trip to the dump: I have very nearly $5 invested in that one, although it needs wood. Brass IS a problem for the .43 Mauser, but at least one fellow on this board is making his own out of .45-90 empties.

You SHOULD be able to run into a Kar. '71, even on the EE, around $200.... and they are a FINE little hunting rifle. Shoot one at Mister Moose and he craps out from a heart attack before the bullet gets to him!

The idea of buying an 1867 Rolling Block and then paying somebody another $500 to destroy it is repugnant in the extreme. Why not simply buy one in the original 12.11x44R and SHOOT IT? You can reload it with .50-70 dies, it takes a .50-70 slug and load and, if you are too broke to buy brass, you can open out 8mm Lebel casings ($70 a hundred) and they will work just peachy-keen fine. NO reason to butcher a fine piece of history.

There is lots of choice out there, IN your budget range, if you know what to look for and you are willing to do a little bit of work. But when you are dealing with something already 140 or 150 years old, you can't expect just to zippp down to the corner Tactical Supply Depot and pick up a box of ammo: all they stock is .223 and .308 and maybe 7.62x39: ALL developed a century after your target date.

BTW, you might be able to BUY .45-70 but I would NOT use it in an antique barrel. Jackets are much too hard for an old soft-iron or mild-steel bore, flatten the rifling down in about 5 boxes.

If you do it right and have any respect for the rifle, you will be in a handloading situation right from the first shot.

Get used to that idea, do it right...... and there are a world of fine old rifles out there, just waiting for someone to love them and feed them.
 
Smellie, when you roll through the Tradex stock lists, stop for a while to admire the pre-butchered examples that they already have.

Lots of second and third sets of modifications on those old actions. Military originally, sporterized, then converted to shotguns, are the ones I refer to. Some quite badly, too. A better life is what they need! :)

Take the pragmatic approach. If it isn't of use, then it gets chucked and is gone forever. I'd rather see a T-bucket body go by on a hot rod, than see it go by on a scrap truck!

Cheers
Trev
 
trevj said:
Smellie, when you roll through the Tradex stock lists, stop for a while to admire the pre-butchered examples that they already have.

Lots of second and third sets of modifications on those old actions. Military originally, sporterized, then converted to shotguns, are the ones I refer to. Some quite badly, too. A better life is what they need! :)

Take the pragmatic approach. If it isn't of use, then it gets chucked and is gone forever. I'd rather see a T-bucket body go by on a hot rod, than see it go by on a scrap truck!

Cheers
Trev
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I agree 100%. Who cares what somebody does with their rifle? It's not like rolling blocks are rare or even valuable and they make a fine hunting rifle.
 
Thanks for the advice! I'm cool with waiting for a closer shot. The point of the trip would be for the fun and experience. If something I could take cane within range that's awesome but I'd like to be able to take it if so. I'm totally fine reading for something older. As I say I have two revolvers (Webley mk1 and Belgian RIC pattern, both 455) which I reload for. Obviously not super experienced but I'm fine with being overly cautious and working things up slowly. I have access to a crony for working up loads and I don't mind spending the time on it. It would be lots of fun!

But regardless, it sounds like, unless I get real lucky, I will end up getting a flint lock of some sort for now, and just have fun!

Any suggestions on a good beginners flintlock on a budget? Or are most pretty decent? Any I should stay away from? And any good advice?

Thanks!

antiqueguy said:
I doubt you will find a antique rifle in .45 colt and if you modified one you would need a complete rebarrel as rifles in say .45-70 use a .457"+(most antiques using a .460"-.465") bullet where the .45 colt uses a .454" bullet plu one in .45 colt would mean you would have to stay within bow range for hunting. id just wait as you don't sound experienced enough with firearms to reload as it would be needed for anything in .45-70 as far as I know only trapdoor's were chambered in them unless you find a re barreled martini or rolling block the martini would take mild factory .45-70 no problem. oh and as far as using other brass in a .43 mauser it can be done but very advanced .50-70 brass can be used in 12.7x44r .577 snider you can use 24ga shot shell brass but again bullets are not common and lee dies suck
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