1:7, 1:8, 1:9 What Twist Rate is Preferred?

Leg said:
1/7 is ....completely unnecessary on a civilian rifle.
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For the average shooter this may be true, but there is good reason 7 twist barrels are sought after in competitive shooting circles (mostly in the States) where longer distance shooting (and single loading long loaded heavies) prevails.
I've even tried a 9 twist with 77smks at 600m and it sucked donkey balls. Why risk not having the right stick when 7s are easy to get and will for sure have enough twist? In my mind it has little to so with getting on a mil-spec bandwagon and everything to do with getting it right the first time. If others want to limit their rifles, go for it...
 
beltfed said:
For the average shooter this may be true, but there is good reason 7 twist barrels are sought after in competitive shooting circles (mostly in the States) where longer distance shooting (and single loading long loaded heavies) prevails.
I've even tried a 9 twist with 77smks at 600m and it sucked donkey balls. Why risk not having the right stick when 7s are easy to get and will for sure have enough twist? In my mind it has little to so with getting on a mil-spec bandwagon and everything to do with getting it right the first time. If others want to limit their rifles, go for it...
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The OP was talking about a standard 16" AR and made no mention of single loading 90gn rounds and shooting at 800m. My suggestion was 1/8 which is the best twist for the largest variety of ammo out of a 16" barrel. How is that limiting yourself?

55gn is about the cheapest and most common ammo out there. Will it work in 1/7? Absolutely, is it optimal? Nope. A lot of people see no difference in group size out to 100m but beyond that groups can open up somewhat. Will most people notice the difference? Unlikely, unless they're attempting precision long range shooting. Which they likely wouldn't do with cheap 55gn anyway which brings me back to my original statement that 1/8 is the most versatile twist in a general purpose 16" carbine.

Granted 1/8" is not a common twist and if I were limited to choosing between 1/9 and 1/7 I'd likely go with 1/7 so I could use 77gn if I wanted to. If I never planned on shooting rounds that heavy then I'd probably opt for 1/9.

But thanks for trying to cherry pick my post and apply it to an extreme example that wasn't meant to be covered by my post and imply that I'm somehow limiting people with my suggestion.
 
What ARs have 1/8 twist ? So far I found only RRA Varmint, but this is special order, no ETA.

Thanks !
 
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Leg said:
....But thanks for trying to cherry pick my post and apply it to an extreme example that wasn't meant to be covered by my post and imply that I'm somehow limiting people with my suggestion.
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Sorry I didn't quote your entire post. It wasn't my intention to 'cherry pick' any of it; just cut out the important part I though you were implying.
Let's review it:

Leg said:
1/7 is to stabilize tracer rounds and is completely unnecessary on a civilian rifle. They only exist because of the demand created by mil spec fetishists. 1/8 will easily stabilize 80gn rounds and is better suited to some of the lighter rounds than 1/7.
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So my point is that not everyone who runs 7 twists do it because they have a mil spec fetish.
They are readily available, and stabilize pretty much everything out there one is likely to use.
As I'm sure you're aware, not everyone who uses a 16" barrel is limiting their shooting to short distance.
I think your above post (#22) is a better descriptor of why one would choose a over b, and if I could cherry pick one statement this would be it:
Leg said:
Granted 1/8" is not a common twist and if I were limited to choosing between 1/9 and 1/7 I'd likely go with 1/7 so I could use 77gn if I wanted to. If I never planned on shooting rounds that heavy then I'd probably opt for 1/9.
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Shilen and Krieger offer no 1/7 service rifle barrels only a 1/8 and 1/7.7.

If US service rifle shooters saw a need/advantage one of those two companies would have filled the hole in their line up.
 
beltfed said:
So my point is that not everyone who runs 7 twists do it because they have a mil spec fetish.
They are readily available, and stabilize pretty much everything out there one is likely to use.
As I'm sure you're aware, not everyone who uses a 16" barrel is limiting their shooting to short distance.
I think your above post (#22) is a better descriptor of why one would choose a over b, and if I could cherry pick one statement this would be it:
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Fair enough. However, I do stand behind my original statement. 1/7 only exists to appease the demand for the milspec crowd. 1/7 haven't been around the civilian market for very long, only within the last few years. Prior to companies like MSTN, Denny's Guns, Rainier, Noveske, BCM and DD starting to offer 1/7 twist the only way to get one was to buy a Colt, even then 1/7 was mostly found in the rifles marketed to LE. It made sense for Colt to sell them since they were making them for the military already.

I'm not much of a bolt gun guy but what's the preferred twist rate amongst the .223 precision crowd? I'd be surprised if it's 1/7 except amongst those that use 90gn rounds trying to shoot out to 1000m. People that shoot 80gn and less in a precision bolt gun are more likely to use 1/8.

So why the desire for 1/7 in the AR crowd? I can't say for certain but I suspect that the military starting to use 77gn for their SPRs may have had something to do with it as well as people growing tired of some of the mediocre rifles that were being pumped out in the 80s and 90s. People wanted the same quality as the military guns and the easiest way to do that is to duplicate the specs, materials, etc of the mil guns. So slowly but surely people started demanding things like mil spec barrel steel. Prior to that only Colt and Bushmaster offered 4150. Other things that people wanted were milspec dia buffer tubes, government profile barrel contours, chrome lining, FA bolt carriers, etc...... Thanks to the internet the masses finally had a voice and manufacturers had to adapt or lose business to the small companies that were listening (some of them have become very successful, Stag, BCM, DD).

A simplified version of events I'm sure but that's how I remember things evolving.
 
Gunnerlove said:
Shilen and Krieger offer no 1/7 service rifle barrels only a 1/8 and 1/7.7.

If US service rifle shooters saw a need/advantage one of those two companies would have filled the hole in their line up.
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Shielen offers 7" twist and Krieger has ditched it in preference for the 7.7" and 6.5" twists.
 
Leg said:
1/7 is to stabilize tracer rounds and is completely unnecessary on a civilian rifle. They only exist because of the demand created by mil spec fetishists. 1/8 will easily stabilize 80gn rounds and is better suited to some of the lighter rounds than 1/7.
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Yep, and even the lowly 1 in 10 twist found on Swiss Arms rifles will stabilize 68gr projectiles. While there's no real disadvantage to a 1/7 twist, there's no practical advantage over a 1/8 or even 1/9 for 99% of situations.
 
Ar180shooter said:
Yep, and even the lowly 1 in 10 twist found on Swiss Arms rifles will stabilize 68gr projectiles. While there's no real disadvantage to a 1/7 twist, there's no practical advantage over a 1/8 or even 1/9 for 99% of situations.
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While that may be true, the 10 twist on the Swiss Arms is still limited with those heavier bullets with shorter bearing lengths like the 68 gr. HPBT. Mine wouldn't keep them stable at 300m - which in the scheme of things is not that far.

With respect to your assertion about 'practical advantage' - I would argue the other way - varied bullet design and availability for .223 has exploded in the last 15 or so years such that unless one is specifically looking at running very light varmint bullets below 50 grains in weight, there is no good reason to limit your rifle with a slower twist rate.
 
beltfed said:
While that may be true, the 10 twist on the Swiss Arms is still limited with those heavier bullets with shorter bearing lengths like the 68 gr. HPBT. Mine wouldn't keep them stable at 300m - which in the scheme of things is not that far.

With respect to your assertion about 'practical advantage' - I would argue the other way - varied bullet design and availability for .223 has exploded in the last 15 or so years such that unless one is specifically looking at running very light varmint bullets below 50 grains in weight, there is no good reason to limit your rifle with a slower twist rate.
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I'm not suggesting intentionally limit your yourself to slower twist rates, just that the whole 1/7 vs 1/9 debate is over emphasized, and for most shooters, a 1/9 will be more than sufficient. Basically, for your average AR user slinging 55 and 62 gr projectiles down range, don't worry about the twist rate. As for the Swiss Arms, I found that my Black Special stabilized the 68gr Seller & Bellot Match rounds out to 500 yards, and although I do realize that this is pushing it for that twist rate, and all rifles may not have the same good results with that ammo, the point was to emphasize that even with slower twist rates, you can stabilize surprisingly long/heavy rounds, and a 1/9 twist is capable of stabilizing projectiles heavier than 68gr, which covers most .223 loadings.
 
ekp said:
What ARs have 1/8 twist ? So far I found only RRA Varmint, but this is special order, no ETA.

Thanks !
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My 12 inch PWS has a 1:8 twist and so does my non restricted ACR barrel.
1:8 is my favorite twist for a semi auto 223. I think it will stabilize anything I will ever shoot but if I had a bolt action that I wanted to shoot long distance with I would pick a 1:7.
My current 223 bolt action is more of a varmint rifle with it's 1:12 twist. I don't worry about it much though because even with a 12 twist I should be able to stabilize a 62gr and that's enough for anything I'll use it for. If I want to shoot beyond 400yds I'll use my 308 or 338 Lapua.

If I was unfortunate enough to only be able to have one 223 I would go with either a 7 or 8 twist but I wouldn't be running some crappy factory barrel, I'd have one made from a quality blank.
 
boss351cleveland said:
Depends what weight bullets you are shooting and what distance .. If you will only shoot 55gr like 90% of people go 1/9 or 1/8 .. The only point in having a 1/7 barrel is if your going to be shooting 62gr or heavier bullets out to 500m, and you would want a 20'' barrel for that . . If your only going to shoot 55 to 62gr in a 16'' carbine within 300m like most of us get a 1/9 .
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Correct answer
 
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