If you had $12,000, what lathe would you get & why.

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caustic

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the title says it all.

I'm currently looking for something to do some gunsmithing on, $12,000 for basic tooling, gauges + machine. Ideally I'd like a free standing unit 13" to 14" as I'll likely want to make other things on it as well.

open to ideas.


thanks in advance for your input
 
Any lathe you like and can afford.

Budget some for tooling and assorted ephemera to fill out the tool box, such as centers, live and dead, driver dogs for between centers work, and an assortment of whichever HSS and carbide tooling suits your fancy.

Do you know enough about running a lathe to be able to make good use of it? Buy some stock to practice upon.

The relative merits of new vs. used can be argued until you pretty much want to take up knitting instead.
The risk for me, can be outweighed by the disproportionate increase in value that can be bought for the same dollar. If you need to have factory support, parts availability, warranty coverage, maybe not the path to take.

Cheers
Trev
 
I'll add that until you decide what type of work you wish to do, and whether you wish to specialize or just have a lathe on hand for more or less 'general' gunsmithing work, as well as what you have for shop space, skills, and already owned tools, are all going to factor in to your decision.

There is no "best" lathe. They all have their idiosyncrasies, that either have to be lived with or worked around. A person with a reasonably agile mind, and a good set of hands, will always be able to produce good work.

I would warn that buying "Old American Iron", as advocated by guys that happen to live in areas that it is both readily available in, and common enough to be able to pick and choose amongst to get a relatively un worn out example of, is a bit of a trap, as you may find that you either got stuck with a worn out POS with a good name on it, or a hobby that you didn't want, restoring and repairing "Old American Iron". Good stuff if you find a good one for a good price. Not so much if that was not what you intended to be doing.

I started out with used machines, and pretty sketchy ones at that, because that was what fit my budget and needs at the time. Then I learned to make those particular machines work for what I wanted to do. I learned to grind my own tools, cut threads and do decent close tolerance work for what I needed at the time. It was ugly, got better with practice. I bought better used machines as they materialized. Sold on the ones I outgrew or simply was not as happy with, to fellas that had a pretty good idea what the condition and usefulness was. And so on. It did not happen in a single shopping trip. More like over a period on many years. I came to the conclusion that having several different sized machines made a lot of sense to me. So I now own 4 different sized metal lathes. The smallest is a WW pattern watchmakers lathe, the largest a 13" swing, by 40" between centers, that I have in storage. All were bought used, except one, which was outright given to me for hauling it away, along with several other machine tools.

Must be 10 percent smarter than the machine, to make it work for you instead of the other way around. The lathe is a tool. It won't make stuff without a person running it.

What lathes have you been looking at? That would probably be a pretty good place to start discussing what may or may not fit your needs.

Cheers
Trev
 
It wouldn't be a lathe first. It'd be a milling machine. Lathes are kind of limited as to what they can be used for in a smithy.
Mind you, if I had 12 grand, there'd be a line up of creditors. snicker.
 
I spent years dithering and researching lathes and mills. Trevj is right that old iron might be great in some area but not in the sticks. Ended up with a new Grizzly mill. Played with it for a while and now have a Grizzly lathe on the way. Price seems reasonable and have great support. I don't have 12 K in them both and have lots left for tooling.
 
For 12 grand you won't get much. I would advise you look in local classifieds to find a half decent used machine. Bigger, sturdier machine that may be a little worn but also may have a few upgrades liek a taper attachment and tooling included. Better than a brand spanking newbusy bee piece of junk where the variable speed drive will fail after 20 hours and the motor will burn out in 200.

Check these out

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/winnipeg/metal-lathe/579345288?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-tool-other/w...6-0/582472626?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true

http://www.kijiji.ca/v-power-tool/winnipeg/lathe/589400326?enableSearchNavigationFlag=true
 
With a $12000 budget you won't be starting out the way I did.. with a lathe/mil combo, really was a waste of finances to say the least.
I upgraded to a 14-40 Chinese machine and have been mostly satisfied with it for hobby use... not the quality of machine you want for steady commercial work tho.

"Satisfied with it for hobby use"... that is until I branched out into a little B/P cannon building. It is fine for the miniature's but lacks the size in the spindle bore or bed length for anything 1/2 scale or bigger.
Spindle bore size would be my first "check". Just for gun work, a spindle bore of 1.5 in would be my minimum requirement to accommodate unturned barrel blanks, and the bed length of 40 " seems to be adequate. Right now I could sure use a lathe with a spindle bore 0f 4'' or bed length of 80" (space isn't a problem for me at this moment) to handle the 3.75 x 72 " tube I have on hand for a full size build this summer.
The second thing I would not go without is a very good integrated taper attachment. I think any lath in your price range should have one, just make sure.
Another tidbit of offered advice...don't break the bank on your lathe & tooling alone, you will soon discover that a mill of some kind is essential kit that your lathe will require as a "partner" to achieve full usefulness. I have a very rudimentary belt driven mill/drill that I have added a power feed to one axis that I probably use more than the lathe.
When I was just starting out in my quest for tooling info, as you are now, a machinist friend told me- "you should buy a mill instead of a lathe, for what you do you will get more good use out of it"... at the time I was into Bubba'ing every p14-17 I could get my hand on (hide my head in shame now), you know the drill.. cutting ears off, mounting scopes, changing bolt looks, etc. Now, I think he was probably right except for the barrel contouring & treading we sometimes need do.

With the appropriate jigs and some ingenuity on my part I think I could even do any "chambering" I need to do with my mill. I would build my mill bench so that the head can be swiveled around to 90 deg behind the table and attach a jig that will hold a barrel upright and lined up perfectly with rotation of the quill. Chuck up a floating reamer mount and use the rotating quill to feed into the bore....What say you more experienced machinist, work or not???
 
sunray said:
It wouldn't be a lathe first. It'd be a milling machine. Lathes are kind of limited as to what they can be used for in a smithy.
Click to expand...

One of the first investments a gunsmith needs is a lathe and a drill press.. they are a necessity. A milling machine is one of the last, it is a luxury. I have not owned one in the 47 years I have been gunsmithing.

Basic requirement for a gunsmithing lathe... swing is not important, 9, 10 or 11" is plenty, preferably a spindle hole of 1.375" with a short headstock... and a 4 foot bed. 3 jaw and 4 jaw chuck, face plates, milling vise, tail stock chuck and live center. I use a rocker tool holder and I think it is nicer for gunsmithing than the machine shop turret holders. Variable speed is nice. It doesn't need to thread metric but is nice if it can... 240 volt single phase motor will hook up anywhere.

My favorite gunsmithing lathe, an 11 inch Rockwell made in 1970 or 71. I bought it from the original owner.

rockwell-0.jpg
 
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Everything Trev said. Good advice there.

Second, join the " practical machinist" forum. Not that many people here are in the habit of giving bad advice, but you'll get higher grade advice there.

In general I advise people to kind of think about projects like this as a job. If you pay yourself a nice wage like $ 50 per hour, investing 2 grand in getting smarter can pay off x 10 when the moment comes for you to make a buying decision. If you invest 2 thousand theoretical dollars getting smarter and it keeps you from buying a 4 thousand dollar used POC or a 7K new hunk of junk that wont do what you want or need, then you've invested wisely I'd say.

Circumstances have made my choice for me. I don't have the 3-5 grand to look for a new machine, so it's used or nothing for me. I don't believe in miracles so I'm not doing much if any research on buying used Hardinge HVL's, Monarch 10 EE's, or high end Cinci's. ( plus I don't have the space for some of the cheaper but larger bargains that come along ). Thus my logical process of elimination says invest time and energy learning about the ins and outs of used South Bends, Clausings, Rockwells, Atlas. Maybe not a miracle, but if a decent Standard Modern comes along they're not hard to get info on. Unless it's being sold close to scrap weight I'm staying away from any orphaned brands where I'd have to India Jones for parts.
Patience isn't an option in my case, but that works to my advantage, in that I'll wait for a machine that's a good fit rather than panicking and regretting it later. I've also gotten used to the fact that the bargain you missed last week is just next weeks bargain waiting to come along. It's never '' The Last One " it's just this weeks one and there will be another next week to.
Little traps and pit falls to think about. Digital Read Out's - aka DRO's . Not mandatory, but kinda like power steering, brakes, air conditioning, and toilet paper: once you've used it, going back to wiping your butt with pine cones just don't quite cut it anymore. Lighting, electric, ventilation, storage, organizational materials ( aka shelves, bins, drawers, labelers ) make a huge difference between this being a fun project or a pita in the making.
WEIGHT ! The Super Bowl is to hookers what moving season is to physiotherapists. Money in the bank. And that's just piddly stuff like fridges and washers. Any lathe worth buying is gonna weigh, period. Know Exactly how much you can handle and then Exactly how much it will cost for a pro to show up for more than that. Don't cheap out here, or screw up on the planning, or you might more than just regret it.

gl and looking forward to the pics.
 
sunray said:
It wouldn't be a lathe first. It'd be a milling machine. Lathes are kind of limited as to what they can be used for in a smithy.
Mind you, if I had 12 grand, there'd be a line up of creditors. snicker.
Click to expand...

f:P:

OMGWTF!?

The lathe is the cornerstone of just about every machine shop, anywhere in the world. A gunsmith can use it to cut threads, profile and chamber barrels as well as true actions, and much much more. With the right accessories, it can also do small and simple 2D milling and drilling work. A manual mill, without a rotary table, can do 2D milling and drilling work, and just about nothing else. Having only a mill precludes the operator from ever turning long or accurate shafts, threading of any sort (dies and tapping do not count), and completely eliminates the vast majority of barrel work, most of which require the barrel to be spinning.
 
I never did answer the original question, though.

I'd take the mythical $12K and go looking for the best Schaublin 135 that I could find. If you ever get to run one, or better even (but less affordable) a Schaublin 150, you'll know why. :) Hard to go back to pine cones!

For a tooled up 135 I would happily trade off almost all the rest of my lathes. A well tooled up 150 in good shape, would equate to a lottery win, both in likelihood and in how it would change my shop.

Back to reality...<sigh>...

Don't be dissing the RF-30/RF-31 Mill-Drill machines, as a useful tool. Kinda half-arsed as a milling machine, but you can do good work on one, but about as good as any drill press available anywhere, and with a cross slide table built right in. Thomas Skinner in Edmonton told me they sold a lot of them to commercial shops to be used as a drill rather than a mill, to the extent that they only stocked a model with a taller than normal column, to allow some headroom when a decent sized drill bit is used. Yes they lose index when you have to raise or lower the head.OK. For most of the work you will do with a machine like that, it makes no difference, as, mainly, you will be dong scribe a line, cut to the line milling, to make a single part, rather than trying to use production methods. Once you learn to use an edge finder or wiggler, you get over the fuss pretty quickly.

If you ever get a chance to use any really decent (unaffordable new, now) drill presses, compared to the CTire type cheapo stuff, it becomes pretty apparent that they are worlds apart.

I've used a rocker tool post plenty, per guntech above, but prefer my quick change tool holders for convenience sake. Detest the four way rotating tool posts though, as I seem to always be cutting the back of my hand on the tool that is closest to the front when going in to measure the work. I have a Dickson type post for my two largest lathes, and am building a clone of a Tripan type for my Myford. If I were to go buy a QC post again, I would look pretty darn hard at the 40 position Multifix clones that are available on Ebay for a great deal less than the real thing. They are getting some good reviews. You will find that to have 5 or so tool holders with a couple favorite tools loaded up make it pretty easy to walk up too the lath and go. Being able to quickly switch from turning, boring, threading, and parting off, with a minimum of fuss, has a lot to say for itself. Try to remember that the reason for having it in the first place is to avoid having to dink around with the tool post every time you change tools, so learn to set it up square to the work so you can either smack a boring tool down the bore, or part off cleanly, without having to adjust it each time, else you may just as well not spend the money.

If you are not yet aware of it, check out the machine tool archives at www.lathes.co.uk. Good reference material, and the guy that owns it makes some money selling copies of the literature for various machines. Handy place to get an idea of what you may be going to see, if you don't recognize the name.

Cheers
Trev
 
How about keep you $12000, and get a jobs as a machinist(take some course as manual machinist at technical school), this way down the road, you have the skill, also more money than the 12000, it doesn't matter how much money you got in your wallet or the bank, it will not replace the skill that you have as a manual machinist.
 
I've been doing a bit of lathe work (gun related) for a few years ago just using some big Taiwanese lathes that SAIT has. I'd like to ideally
get one of my own one day. The guys I know who have purchased home lathes have all ended up with Chinese ones which have been
nothing but problems (electric motor issues, sloppy controls, etc).
I'm definitely looking at something made in Taiwan. A friend just purchased the following unit from Grizzley and has been
really happy with it. Apparently it's made in the same factory as the Southbends but with a much lower price tag.
The specs on it look really good but I'd definitely like to take the unit for a run with my own hands before purchasing one.

http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-3-Phase-High-Precision-Toolroom-Metal-Lathe/G0740

g0740-f0650d2f86065e6f904177725f661b15.jpg
 
I'd get a Smithy Granite 1340.

http://www.smithy.com/granite/pricing/classic

Plus they take R8 tooling for milling...not too expensive but you have a lot to work with.

You can do anything you want to do on a regular firearm with this and you'll be left with half your $12000 for tooling and measuring equipment.
 
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I bought one of those used sait lathes a few years back. I got to pick the best of the bunch and ended up with a good one. It fits my needs quite nicely.

Trev, those Chinese clone 40 pos posts are actually quite good for the price as compared to the real deal. Always returns to dead zero.

Cheers YC
 
Mad_Mikee said:
I've been doing a bit of lathe work ....<snippage here>...

http://www.grizzly.com/products/14-x-40-3-Phase-High-Precision-Toolroom-Metal-Lathe/G0740
Click to expand...

That lathe is a pretty close copy of the Colchester Master that was originally made in England, but Colchester outsourced to Taiwan/China at one point. An outfit named DahLi or DaLian built them to Colchester's specs, they still used the outrageously expensive Gamet bearings, and were mostly a pretty good machine. We had a couple of the larger offshore Colchesters in the military shop I retired from. Good machines, overall.

They suffer some of the same problems as the originals too, watch your taper attachments and the cross slide areas for filling up with chips and dried coolant mung. The lube pumps in the apron, are a weak spot, in my experience, and letting it go (ie: not fixing it immediately)when it stops working is a bad idea!

I liked the old Colchester 2500 a bunch, so bought one when it came up on Crown assets. Not mint, but came with a whackload of tooling and a steel deployment type heavy duty tool box for it all.

JReid, the problems with the Combo machines are many and complicated. A fella with a boatload of experience can do good work on them, but unfortunately, they usually end up being bought by guys with none. I would figure that more guys quit hobby metalworking because of their shortcomings, than have got a solid start.

YC, I have been taking on faith, the word of one of the old hands on PM that the replica Multifix posts are pretty decent. The Chinese are generally getting a bit of a bad rap as far as manufacturing goes, as we tend to see only the least expensive built stuff over here for consumer commodities. They can build to any quality level the customer will pay for. They get less competitive on price, when the quality level goes up, though. These tools seem to be getting pretty good reviews.

CanAm, I figure you will be pretty happy with your new lathe. Keep us posted. I figure 13x40/14x40 is a pretty darn good size for an 'only' lathe, if you have the room and the budget.

Cheers
Trev
 
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