Cnc is not for an rookie machinist, I had about $12000 invested in mine powered up in my shop, paid it off on first job in 10 days, just last night made $400 in 2 hrs making 4 bushings, this is in my home shop . I had zero experience with cnc lathes when I bought it. But I do have 20 years running cnc mills under my belt. If your just an average machinist just stick to the manuals, but the real money is in cnc
If you had $12,000, what lathe would you get & why.
- Thread starter caustic
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I would never consider a cnc for a gunsmithing lathe. It's a specialized production tool. A lifetime of gunsmithing consists of many thousands of unique set ups. Quality gunsmithing has been done on 10 inch Atlas lathes with a 3/4 spindle hole and a flat bed.
I've done very little gun smithing but a cnc lathe is far superior with a good operator, if your not good you can destroy stuff very fast . I mostly do one off or low production runs so setups are exactly like a manual machine. I run a manual 3 and 4 jaw chuck on it
Word, I think this one statement speaks volumes about how comfortable and competent you are with your CNC lathe.
I'm in the other boat that has not actually handled anything CNC at all. My involvement with CNC is based on talking with about half a dozen folks that run CNC machines for a living. None of them have ever said that they felt that their CNC centers had any application for doing modifications on parts that are already made. They all felt that modifications or simple one off parts were easier on manual machines. But these conversations were all something like 10 years ago. I can appreciate that things have likely changed a LOT in that time.
Of course much of a job of this sort would entail keyboard and screen time. To use a CNC lathe for a small modification job one would have to be skilled and appreciative at modeling in CAD in general and have the thought process to model in a modification in a way that the machine would not crash into the object. Or does your setup have some sort of mode where it behaves more like a manually controlled machine? Something like the jogging mode that Trev referred to?
For example, a fairly common job I've seen is to shorten a barrel's threaded end and move the shoulder forward and re-cut the thread. This sort of thing being done to allow the barrel to be re-chambered to something new. Can you describe how you'd locate and index the barrel to match up to a CNC model that will do this sort of cut?
Another example I'm thinking of would be a custom final pitch diameter to fit an existing receiver such that I have a firm sort of interference friction drag fit of the threads instead of a nominal size that fits somewhat loosely. In this example I'd be starting with a barrel blank "log" which makes things a little easier. But I've got no way to easily reach in and measure the exact thread pitch diameter of the receiver. I know the nominal thread pitch diameter of course. But I don't know how much relief it was made to have. I'm wanting to cut the thread on the barrel blank with stops to test the fit to the receiver between cuts once I'm down to somewhere close to the correct size. At that point I need to on command re-run the thread cutting in half thou steps with a stop between cuts to allow test fitting of the receiver.
Or is this not how it's done at all? I'd be interested in your description of how you'd setup for these two fairly typical gunsmithing jobs and in how much time screen time for the programming is needed.
I'm really curious in just how much CNC has come in terms of making one off jobs of this sort more accessible. The standard answer I got 10 to 15 years ago about this sort of question was "no way". CNC was pretty much purely a production tool. But we all know that when it comes to computers and software that 10 years is eons of time in the technology world.
for 12 grand Id look at a Hardinge toolroom lathe, they are solid, last for ever and lots of tooling uses same tooling as production models for years, on ebay there is accessories such as a turret, roll threading and chucks, usually standard is the 5c collet closer and the collets are cheap, with 5c you can get soft chucks that can be machined to hold parts upto 6 inch diameter
Hass make a cnc lathe, tl1, great machine its a combination of a manual/cnc, not used one personally but easily setup, we use the haas cnc mills, I can say taking off a though or two is simple using tool offsets but to make program changes its easier to re run the cam program and download to the mill, I assume this is the case with the lathe when making changes to a program such as adding a undercut
I've chased threads on previously threaded parts, I guess to get a nice fit on your barrel (you could measure old barrel threads pitch and diameter of the pitch ) to receiver you could experiment on a scrap piece, then once your happy with the fit use that program to cut your barrel, with the controls and tooling that's out there now it's not hard. My machine can even cut tapered threads and multiple threads like acme thread
Most CNC shops don't buy CNC Lathes... they buy CNC turning centers, different animal.
Thing with CNC Lathes is they make for a poor manual lathe if you really need a manual lathe and aren't a production machine if you really need cnc, it has its place, but its a small place. I wouldn't want one for doing gun related stuff, heck I don't even want one for the stuff I do.
For 12K a 14x40 ish lathe(5-7K) with footbrake, is a decent start and enough machine for most as a hobby, and then tooling. To me DRO's and a QCTP(check dorian first time buyer sets) are a must have.
Thing with CNC Lathes is they make for a poor manual lathe if you really need a manual lathe and aren't a production machine if you really need cnc, it has its place, but its a small place. I wouldn't want one for doing gun related stuff, heck I don't even want one for the stuff I do.
For 12K a 14x40 ish lathe(5-7K) with footbrake, is a decent start and enough machine for most as a hobby, and then tooling. To me DRO's and a QCTP(check dorian first time buyer sets) are a must have.
I love how a lot of people think cnc lathes are voodoo lol. It keeps me busy making parts for them. A lathe is just a tool, some are better with certain tools then others, a barber uses scissors to give you a cut, I would more them likely butcher your hair lol. To each his own
Nothing voodoo, they're just not that useful to most shops so we pretty much all jump from manual machines right to CNC Turning centers and VMC's.
Best gun related use for a cnc lathe would be if you had to profile a lot of barrels.
Can't go wrong with manual machines, mostly for anyone learning.
Best gun related use for a cnc lathe would be if you had to profile a lot of barrels.
Can't go wrong with manual machines, mostly for anyone learning.
Nope. They need parts, and are willing to pay you, or anyone else, that will make the parts for them. Got nothing to do with CNC, or with CNC being voodoo.
I would say that a CNC lathe or turning center, is a less flexible, more expensive solution, as compared to having a general purpose turning machine in a gunsmiths shop. For a gun shop that was making a product line that was a good fit on a CNC lathe, maybe better.
For a fella that says he has no manual turning experience, you seem the wrong fella to be getting advice from, as far as the suitability of a manual lathe. Or to have much of a qualified opinion on the matter, no?
I like CNC equipment just fine, want more of it, too, but it's not, IMO, a better solution to a general purpose lathe in a one-lathe shop.
Cheers
Trev
Wood, I know how that goes. I once said I'd never give up my big ol' drawing board and Vemco draughting machine. But then along came a big long term project that needed lots of drawings and diagrams and I bit the bullet and taught myself how to use CAD. Now I've not only given up the big ol' board and machine but I'm at the point where if I need to do more than a simple free hand sketch I fire up the CAD.
So certainly a good history of familiarity with the CNC setups counts for a LOT. And as you suggest it's as easy to do a simple job as it is to do a really tough job. The idea of a simple thread vs a tapered double start Acme thread being one such example.
It also says a lot about flexibility that you can set up and chase an existing thread using CNC.
Having said all this I still feel that for a new comer to machining that they will learn more about the actual metal turning and tooling with a manual machine that much sooner than they would on a CNC. But the OP in this case already has a pretty fair history of actually feeling metal cutting and would likely understand about such things as chip loading, proper cutting speeds and other such things. So in this case if he's willing to accept the alternate or extra learning needed to run a CNC turning center I can see it might just be a good option for him.
So certainly a good history of familiarity with the CNC setups counts for a LOT. And as you suggest it's as easy to do a simple job as it is to do a really tough job. The idea of a simple thread vs a tapered double start Acme thread being one such example.
It also says a lot about flexibility that you can set up and chase an existing thread using CNC.
Having said all this I still feel that for a new comer to machining that they will learn more about the actual metal turning and tooling with a manual machine that much sooner than they would on a CNC. But the OP in this case already has a pretty fair history of actually feeling metal cutting and would likely understand about such things as chip loading, proper cutting speeds and other such things. So in this case if he's willing to accept the alternate or extra learning needed to run a CNC turning center I can see it might just be a good option for him.
