I am going to be looking to buy an Antique revolver in 45acp .My budget will be One thousand dollars. What make & model should I be looking for and what can I expect for that price. ? What should I stay away from as well. thanks.
Antique 45acp question ??
- Thread starter lone ranger
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coldestcanuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- lower mainland bc
I've never seen a 45 antique for <1k that was in good enough repair that I would consider buying it. If you up your budget to 1600 you'll be getting closer to a decent gun.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
One thing to be aware of, a noted member wrote a great summary on how the .45 ACP exceeds the proof pressure of essentially every Enfield revolver made before the cutoff. The guns are at minimum 115+ years old, made of malleable iron that can't really be called steel, and are being asked to shoot ammunition that generates forces beyond the proof load. Sure, some guys may hand load light loads- but likely every .45 ACP conversion has been exposed to standard loads, and this has caused irreparable metallurgic damage. Avoid .45 ACP antiques like the plague, and instead buy the proper .455 and .41 Long Colts etc. .41's are my favourite as no modern, high pressure ammunition was ever made for them, and their frames are in the best shape of any of the chamberings I come across. This is also partially because the ammunition dried up after WWII, and they've been shelved the longest. Neither the .455 or .41 are hard to load, and both perform equally well in actual use to a .45 ACP for our purposes with antiques. They are also proper antique chamberings for when the rules are finally tightened. In my opinion, when buying an antique, buy original, and in good shape. "Cheap", "antique", and "quality" go together like the old adage on services and workmanship… you can pick two.
Again, avoid .45 ACP antiques.
Again, avoid .45 ACP antiques.
I get where ardent's coming from on the 45acp vs 455 webley, but I have to disagree in that 45acp is quite a bit easier to reload for - brass for one thing is commonly available - I pick it up by the bag full at the range. It's common knowledge that antiques aren't going to be able to shoot full pressure jacketed 45acp out of them, but that's not the expectation. In of itself .455 and .45acp are essentially the same in many respects since reloading for them is going to use similar data limiting pressures.... Understanding that means understanding that the 45acp chambering is fine, but shooting overpressure cartridges isn't.
Aside from that, I'd agree that $1000 is too low - you very much get what you pay for in antiques... pay less and you're bound to get a gun with loose parts, poor indexing and general problems all round.
Aside from that, I'd agree that $1000 is too low - you very much get what you pay for in antiques... pay less and you're bound to get a gun with loose parts, poor indexing and general problems all round.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I had a Colt SAA with a stretched top strap, because it was used as a .45 ACP- and that is likely the strongest of the antique revolvers. The cylinder was binding on that SAA and it took me awhile to figure out it was the actual frame. Get into top break Webleys and other lighter frame double actions, and one should steer away from any .45ACP bastardizations fast. It's also a really unfortunate trend that is ruining a lot of original antique handguns we should not support. Anywhere else all these late conversions occurring would be sacrilege. The old conversions are even worse, as they've been fed unknown quantities of ammo over the gun's proof load.
One day we'll look back on this era like the era all the beautiful milsurps were ruined in hideous sporterizations.
One day we'll look back on this era like the era all the beautiful milsurps were ruined in hideous sporterizations.
coldestcanuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- lower mainland bc
Hmmm, I understand Ardent's viewpoint. ( I meet lot's of antique car guys with similar mindsets who insist that my hot rod is "ruined" because it is not stock.)
Browse the antique forums and use a little google-fu and reach your own conclusions. My research seems to indicate that Ardent's cautions whilst very real, are very much the exception rather than the rule.
Browse the antique forums and use a little google-fu and reach your own conclusions. My research seems to indicate that Ardent's cautions whilst very real, are very much the exception rather than the rule.
I agree... When the rules are changed for "antiques", they will probably cover firearms in their original chamberings only. The use of "modern" cartridge conversions to take advantage of this loophole will soon be closed, and a lot of these firearms will then be restricted or prohibs. At present, they are not something I would want to invest in heavily. The metallurgical concerns are also valid with these old guns. We may load accordingly to safe pressures, but sooner or later, someone will not. The result will be damaged frames, cylinders, and ruined guns. I just hate to see these great old guns bubba'd up for quick and easy sales.
There's no such thing as an antique .45 ACP revolver. Doesn't meet the 'redesign' or cartridge exemption requirement.
" •Any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition, and that has not been re-designed to discharge such ammunition..."
And
"•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson, .32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt cartridges."
" •Any firearm manufactured before 1898 that was not designed to discharge rim-fire or centre-fire ammunition, and that has not been re-designed to discharge such ammunition..."
And
"•manufactured before 1898 that can discharge centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge .32 Short Colt, .32 Long Colt, .32 Smith and Wesson, .32 Smith and Wesson Long, .32‑20 Winchester, .38 Smith and Wesson; .38 Short Colt, .38 Long Colt, .38-40 Winchester, .44‑40 Winchester, or .45 Colt cartridges."
Hmm - they've changed their web page interpretation recently I see. Sneaky f**ckers.
FORTUNATELY they do not actually write laws. The RCMP info sheet is not law.
This is our actual antique law, as written in the Criminal Code. ( http://www.canlii.org/en/ca/laws/regu/sor-98-464/latest/sor-98-464.html )
" 7. A handgun manufactured before 1898 that is capable of discharging centre-fire cartridges, other than a handgun designed or adapted to discharge 32 Short Colt, 32 Long Colt, 32 Smith and Wesson, 32 Smith and Wesson Long, 32-20 Winchester, 38 Smith and Wesson, 38 Short Colt, 38 Long Colt, 38-40 Winchester, 44-40 Winchester, or 45 Colt cartridges."
FYI they accept antique firearms for antique letters when chambered in 45acp. They do not accept deregistering antiques from no-go cals to new cals, but that's a different kettle of fish.
I would suggest instead of turning tail and running from this, considering our collective investment in antiques, we have a very good chance of disputing this since the RCMP are actually re-writing the criminal code on their web page as can be seen above. This is going past their usual tactic of evasion and bureaucratic stonewalling and is coming into open enforcement of their own dreamed up policy in writing and as such is a threat not only to antique owners, but gun owners and the wider public as a whole.
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Before I had some landlord troubles and had to let my '56 Bel-air convertible go, I was in the process of putting a duramax diesel into it. That sure got some peoples knickers in a twist.
Dont worry to much recent FRT lists 45 acp french 1873s as antique and the webley MKII is still has 45 acp as one of the listed cartridges and its listed as Antique right on the FRT report has its own frt number.
So anyone who says 45 acp converted guns are not antique is not reading the FRT discs that are put out by the RCMP.
coldestcanuck
CGN frequent flyer
- Location
- lower mainland bc
I see you're in Langley Navy. Watch for my '56 210 post. Gold over brown 454 car.
Let's clear up a few things:
1) it's PERFECTLY fine to shoot .45 acp in antiques, as long as the 45 acp has been loaded to antique specs. For antique Webleys, take loading data for the .455 webley, use it for loading the .45 acp with cast lead bullets, and you'll be fine. For Christ sake, the case is just a cup for powder and the dimensions are just about the same.
2) the rcmp hasn't rewritten any laws. The following section is STRAIGHT quoted from the criminal code:
Section (a) makes pre-1898 cap and ball firearms (non cartridge firearms) antique, but excludes those converted to fire cartridges as antiques BUT THEN section (b) makes firearms PRESCRIBED by the Firearms Act (Regulation prescribing antique firearms) to also be antique. This regulation prescribes pre-1898 cartridge-firing firearms as antique, with certain caliber exclusions.
3) there *IS* such a thing as an antique .45 ACP revolver. It is a pistol, originally manufactured (this is the part the rcmp invented, because the law was poorly worded) in an antique caliber (like .455 Webley) that has been converted to fire .45 acp. I JUST bought a Mark II, and I got a letter no problem, so don't tell me otherwise.
1) it's PERFECTLY fine to shoot .45 acp in antiques, as long as the 45 acp has been loaded to antique specs. For antique Webleys, take loading data for the .455 webley, use it for loading the .45 acp with cast lead bullets, and you'll be fine. For Christ sake, the case is just a cup for powder and the dimensions are just about the same.
2) the rcmp hasn't rewritten any laws. The following section is STRAIGHT quoted from the criminal code:
Section (a) makes pre-1898 cap and ball firearms (non cartridge firearms) antique, but excludes those converted to fire cartridges as antiques BUT THEN section (b) makes firearms PRESCRIBED by the Firearms Act (Regulation prescribing antique firearms) to also be antique. This regulation prescribes pre-1898 cartridge-firing firearms as antique, with certain caliber exclusions.
3) there *IS* such a thing as an antique .45 ACP revolver. It is a pistol, originally manufactured (this is the part the rcmp invented, because the law was poorly worded) in an antique caliber (like .455 Webley) that has been converted to fire .45 acp. I JUST bought a Mark II, and I got a letter no problem, so don't tell me otherwise.
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Lots of info here for sure. I will have to do more research. I really appreciate all the help guys !!! This is a real learning curve. Just when you thought you knew enough about fire arm laws to get by........you run into this ANTIQUE stuff, Egads!
This is exactly the point. I telephoned the RCMP techs (Extension 1090) and asked them if SOR/98-464 had changed since Dec. 1, 1998 - and they said it didn't.
I then read SOR/98-464 with the RCMP tech, word-for-word, and I heard an audible "oh" when we reached point 7 as indicated below.
A very personally gratifying - but overall saddening - exercise.
I then read SOR/98-464 with the RCMP tech, word-for-word, and I heard an audible "oh" when we reached point 7 as indicated below.
A very personally gratifying - but overall saddening - exercise.
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I agree with this 100%.
Sadly, I rarely see any Webleys for sale in .455 anymore, they all seem to be .45acp conversions.
As Ardent said, it isn't so much what one of us careful guys will do to a Webley. It's what the yahoos who bought them for $15 in the 1950's and shot them with .45acp hardball did. That metallurgic damage hasn't gone away.
And yes, $1000 is way too low of a budget.
Although, with the moving goalposts of laws and interpretations of laws, it might be a good time to watch and think.
And yes, $1000 is way too low of a budget.
Although, with the moving goalposts of laws and interpretations of laws, it might be a good time to watch and think.
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On that note, I do have to say that .455-chambered antiques seem to have a price discount to them, as many seem afraid about finding brass & projectiles.
It doesn't have to be that (frightened) way...a .45 (long) Colt Lee Classic Handloader and simple .452 - .454 lead projectiles are the only things you really need to add to whatever .455 brass you discover.
And with the $200-500 discount most .455-chambered revolvers seem to have on the E&E, you can definitely afford to put $100 - $200 into what will effectively be enough .455 brass to last you a lifetime.
By the way, that discount is very real....Webley WG's have been selling below $1,900 on the E&E for a reason.
Ardent
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
Yep, the better (original) ones are cheaper, and brass is not at all hard to find. It can be made in a pinch too by anybody with minor handloading experience. Plus, a .455 is so much more interesting than a .45 ACP anyhow! For The Empire. 
