M1941 Johnson Rifle SN 0006
- Thread starter B@K3R
- Start date
No Dutch acceptance star. thats interesting.
Lot's of great info provided already. Below I pasted photo's of the two Johnson's I used to own and a bit of extra info. I was referenced by another contributor in this thread as I restored the one with the longer barrel and sold the rifle. The rifle was in rough condition when I first came across it. I really should have taken "before and after pics" - it really came back to life and I proved you can semi-polish a turd. I will send you a PM and I will offer all help that I can provide in regards to restoring this unique dragon.
Restoration will be hard. You almost need to find another "parts Johnson" (I saw one at the Calgary Gun Show - but still $1800+). With lot's of searching you might find parts, probably bits and bobs here and there. Numrich is the most readily available source, then Ebay. These fetch premium prices in Europe and the US. You might be able to sell internationally as it doesn't have US property markings.
I recently managed to find the parts required to restore a K43 VOPO QVE 45 (All I had was the sporterized stock, barreled receiver, rear site, safety and trigger group - cost me $500 at a gun show). To give you an idea of an extensive restoration project, after selling the sporterized stock for almost $500 US the project still cost me about $1800 (after subtracting the proceeds from the sporterized stock). This is a much more common WWII semi-auto rifle/probably just as desirable, so this will give you an idea of the money it is going to take to restore you rifle (let alone time 2-3 months to source parts and if I choose there are lots of repro G/K43 parts out there - not so much for Johnson's).
Good Luck
The stock can be repaired/improved, wood splicing could work and was also common in various refurb's. There are repro stocks out there, but they are out of production and as a result not cheap. There are also post war "commercial stocks".
Almost Twins:
Serial Numbers 1216 and 1276 (both no letter suffix).
Rifle 1216 - This one has most likely seen combat. Note that the barrel does not have the bayonet lug and appears cut down/re-crowned. From the markings, I suspect this was done at the arsenal level, however there were unofficially at least three different barrel lengths for these rifles, so who knows? The barrel is pretty worn as typical with these rifles, unless you were lucky enough to buy an un-issued example.
Rifle 1276 - Happy story on this one. I found this rifle in a gun shop just last week and it was rode hard and put away wet. With some TLC this rifle really came back to life. I do need a magazine cover spring and a forearm screw. Anyone happy to donate or sell these parts?
The barrel is also pretty worn and the stock was arsenal repaired on both sides. This one almost certainly saw combat.
I didn't realize how much misinformation was out there on these rifles until reading The Marine Model 1941 Johnson Semi Automatic Rifle (http://foxtrot666.hubpages.com/hub/The-Marine-Model-Johnson-M1941-Semi-Automatic-Rifle).
Despite the Netherlands/Dutch order of 30,000 rifles, less than 30,000 rifles were ever produced (not the previously presumed 70,000 rifles). Some of these rifles went to Dutch Indonesia, some to the Marines in the Pacific and some reportedly to the First Special Service Force "Devil's Brigade" (this is debatable but they were issued Johnson LMG's).
These rifles were also not delivered in patterned number blocks (for example K98 production for Snipers, Navy, Marine, SS issue rifles etc), so you cannot tell whether you have a Dutch or US rifles unless it is marked with a Dutch Crown or 'US' property mark.
Anyone familiar with these rifles knows that the receiver was serialized but not one serial number part matched the receiver or any other part assembled on the rifle. Serial numbered parts included the hammer, extractor, bolt body, bolt locking cam, firing pin, magazine, etc. All these parts were serialized and assembled randomly, but what is even more interesting is the company recorded the receiver serial number and listed all random serial numbered parts assembled on that rifle, which was recorded on an assembly record.
It is regrettable that the documents with the delivery/rifle assembly data are currently held by the Johnson family and have not been released to the general public.
Restoration will be hard. You almost need to find another "parts Johnson" (I saw one at the Calgary Gun Show - but still $1800+). With lot's of searching you might find parts, probably bits and bobs here and there. Numrich is the most readily available source, then Ebay. These fetch premium prices in Europe and the US. You might be able to sell internationally as it doesn't have US property markings.
I recently managed to find the parts required to restore a K43 VOPO QVE 45 (All I had was the sporterized stock, barreled receiver, rear site, safety and trigger group - cost me $500 at a gun show). To give you an idea of an extensive restoration project, after selling the sporterized stock for almost $500 US the project still cost me about $1800 (after subtracting the proceeds from the sporterized stock). This is a much more common WWII semi-auto rifle/probably just as desirable, so this will give you an idea of the money it is going to take to restore you rifle (let alone time 2-3 months to source parts and if I choose there are lots of repro G/K43 parts out there - not so much for Johnson's).
Good Luck
The stock can be repaired/improved, wood splicing could work and was also common in various refurb's. There are repro stocks out there, but they are out of production and as a result not cheap. There are also post war "commercial stocks".
Almost Twins:
Serial Numbers 1216 and 1276 (both no letter suffix).
Rifle 1216 - This one has most likely seen combat. Note that the barrel does not have the bayonet lug and appears cut down/re-crowned. From the markings, I suspect this was done at the arsenal level, however there were unofficially at least three different barrel lengths for these rifles, so who knows? The barrel is pretty worn as typical with these rifles, unless you were lucky enough to buy an un-issued example.
Rifle 1276 - Happy story on this one. I found this rifle in a gun shop just last week and it was rode hard and put away wet. With some TLC this rifle really came back to life. I do need a magazine cover spring and a forearm screw. Anyone happy to donate or sell these parts?
The barrel is also pretty worn and the stock was arsenal repaired on both sides. This one almost certainly saw combat.
I didn't realize how much misinformation was out there on these rifles until reading The Marine Model 1941 Johnson Semi Automatic Rifle (http://foxtrot666.hubpages.com/hub/The-Marine-Model-Johnson-M1941-Semi-Automatic-Rifle).
Despite the Netherlands/Dutch order of 30,000 rifles, less than 30,000 rifles were ever produced (not the previously presumed 70,000 rifles). Some of these rifles went to Dutch Indonesia, some to the Marines in the Pacific and some reportedly to the First Special Service Force "Devil's Brigade" (this is debatable but they were issued Johnson LMG's).
These rifles were also not delivered in patterned number blocks (for example K98 production for Snipers, Navy, Marine, SS issue rifles etc), so you cannot tell whether you have a Dutch or US rifles unless it is marked with a Dutch Crown or 'US' property mark.
Anyone familiar with these rifles knows that the receiver was serialized but not one serial number part matched the receiver or any other part assembled on the rifle. Serial numbered parts included the hammer, extractor, bolt body, bolt locking cam, firing pin, magazine, etc. All these parts were serialized and assembled randomly, but what is even more interesting is the company recorded the receiver serial number and listed all random serial numbered parts assembled on that rifle, which was recorded on an assembly record.
It is regrettable that the documents with the delivery/rifle assembly data are currently held by the Johnson family and have not been released to the general public.
The severely cracked stock puts it into the 'too far gone' category. Replacing the stock will cost a fortune. Gunparts wants $325.85US for one. The apparently shot out barrel(the cartridge test being a good field expedient test) doesn't help either.
Absolutely no friggin' way would I dewat it, just on the principle of the thing.
It's a standard M1941 semi-auto, not the Johnson LMG.
Absolutely no friggin' way would I dewat it, just on the principle of the thing.
It's a standard M1941 semi-auto, not the Johnson LMG.
I talked to the last owner. He said that it needed a barrel for it and got one out of the states. He also passed on the info for the man he purchased it from. He mentioned that he had many but just wanted to put it together.
So getting a new barrel is easy and even a repo stock. Its all doable as long as I keep everything I take off. I can have it look like everyone elses rifles. But its not "original"
The S-6 Serial number for it is more than enough of a reason for me to keep it. It could potentially be "that" rifle that someone truly wants. But its not for sale now or in the intermediate future
So getting a new barrel is easy and even a repo stock. Its all doable as long as I keep everything I take off. I can have it look like everyone elses rifles. But its not "original"
The S-6 Serial number for it is more than enough of a reason for me to keep it. It could potentially be "that" rifle that someone truly wants. But its not for sale now or in the intermediate future
Coyote Ugly
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
You might want to post your rifle's pics on this forum to get more information. Lot's of good people and info on that forum.
I was able to find out for my rifles when they were made, the serial numbers on all the individual parts how it left the factory and where it was going to.
Another interesting thing is Melvin Johnson's son Ed is on that forum. Melvin Johnson was the inventor of the Johnson Rifle.
http://johnsonautomatics.com/messageboard/
I was able to find out for my rifles when they were made, the serial numbers on all the individual parts how it left the factory and where it was going to.
Another interesting thing is Melvin Johnson's son Ed is on that forum. Melvin Johnson was the inventor of the Johnson Rifle.
http://johnsonautomatics.com/messageboard/
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
...
Restoration will be hard. You almost need to find another "parts Johnson" (I saw one at the Calgary Gun Show - but still $1800+). With lot's of searching you might find parts, probably bits and bobs here and there. Numrich is the most readily available source, then Ebay. These fetch premium prices in Europe and the US. You might be able to sell internationally as it doesn't have US property markings.
...
...
The bores are generally badly pitted and are thought to be unshootable. The folklore is that the gunsmith takes very careful measurements and drills the barrel out of the breech ring. Then a modern 30-06 barrel threaded into the stub.
WHY WOULD YOU DO THAT ? would it not be easier to unscrew the barrel extension (locking lug). these are very easy to rebarrel if you have a Ruger 3006 barrel.
maple_leaf_eh
CGN Ultra frequent flyer
I qualified my remark as Folklore. If you have greater knowledge, you would be the equivalent of a truthsayer around the campfire.
Okay, I have kept out of this for reason of pure ignorance.
I only have 1 Johnson and it is rough. A .312" slug drops right through; I think it might be telling me something. Has serial number but no stars anywhere.
I was under the impression that the Star was post-Independence Indonesian, as on the Indonesian Lee-Enfields. I have one of those, too, also rough.
On my bench right now are 5 antique stocks in as bad condition as the one on the rifle under discussion. They will all be repaired and the guns will be at work this Summer. You just have to work slowly and carefully. But that one can be repaired. Full degreasing, glue by injecting with clear epoxy (Acra-Glas Gel) using a 10cc veterinarian's syringe, fill with Walnut dust in Gel, sand smooth carefully and preserve with proper oiling. Take about 2 weeks to do it right.
I think it is pretty clear that the S is for Sample. It has a 1941 model date, which is when the Dutch contract rifles were produced. A Sample for the Indies? Could well have gone there prior to the Japanese invasion. I knew a friend of my Dad's who was drilling for oil in Java at that time. He had time to get out; things did not go like lightning.
I only have 1 Johnson and it is rough. A .312" slug drops right through; I think it might be telling me something. Has serial number but no stars anywhere.
I was under the impression that the Star was post-Independence Indonesian, as on the Indonesian Lee-Enfields. I have one of those, too, also rough.
On my bench right now are 5 antique stocks in as bad condition as the one on the rifle under discussion. They will all be repaired and the guns will be at work this Summer. You just have to work slowly and carefully. But that one can be repaired. Full degreasing, glue by injecting with clear epoxy (Acra-Glas Gel) using a 10cc veterinarian's syringe, fill with Walnut dust in Gel, sand smooth carefully and preserve with proper oiling. Take about 2 weeks to do it right.
I think it is pretty clear that the S is for Sample. It has a 1941 model date, which is when the Dutch contract rifles were produced. A Sample for the Indies? Could well have gone there prior to the Japanese invasion. I knew a friend of my Dad's who was drilling for oil in Java at that time. He had time to get out; things did not go like lightning.
Repeat - Get on the US Johnson forum and talk to Ed, the designers son.
I wouldn't try to refinish it or attempt any repairs. Spare parts are expensive because these are so rare. Original barrels not worn out are even rarer. These are fun to shoot, maybe too much fun to shoot.
I believe you have one of the first samples of the semi auto, made for testing and to impress the brass to like it enough order a few million. It is probably worth much more to an American collector. Tough part is getting it down there. I don't think these are caught under the lend lease BS rules for export to them. They should know if that is possible on that Johnsons forum.
I wouldn't try to refinish it or attempt any repairs. Spare parts are expensive because these are so rare. Original barrels not worn out are even rarer. These are fun to shoot, maybe too much fun to shoot.
I believe you have one of the first samples of the semi auto, made for testing and to impress the brass to like it enough order a few million. It is probably worth much more to an American collector. Tough part is getting it down there. I don't think these are caught under the lend lease BS rules for export to them. They should know if that is possible on that Johnsons forum.
Ellwood Epps can help with Exporting rifles to the US. A standard Johnson will be worth 2-4x more on the south side of the Border. The Johnson you have isn't US property marked - so Lend Lease Rules should not apply but check into this.
I have an early M1 Garand serial 18X (first month of production). US buyers would have paid top dollars for this rifle.
Maybe a consideration - especially if it lands a place in a Museum south of the border. As stated this rifle may have some significance.
I have an early M1 Garand serial 18X (first month of production). US buyers would have paid top dollars for this rifle.
Maybe a consideration - especially if it lands a place in a Museum south of the border. As stated this rifle may have some significance.
