ipsc black badge poll/question

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Here's my thoughts... I am a member at three different clubs. Of those three clubs, only Silverdale will allow me to use a holster. My other two clubs do not allow holsters at all. You made this thread talking as though holster use is a god given right. Reality check: it's not. While I respect the other two clubs as being non-holster for whatever reasons they are, I respect Silverdale for being holster friendly. The two non-holster clubs are owned by the membership so to speak. If one were to want to bring holsters into the allowable rules, they would have to bring this up at meetings, have it voted on and such. Silverdale is privately owned. The management there make the rules plain and simple. It's their land, their investment, their source of income. You make it sound like they owe you something, if you are a member, they do owe you... they owe you access to the range provided you abide by their rules. You don't make the rules, but you do have to follow them. Do you think that IPSC Canada is going to spend money on legal to try and tell Silverdale they that cannot set whatever rules they want? It is people like you with some sort of sense of entitlement who like to bash everyone else who doesn't see eye to eye with you. I am trying to find a way to tell you where to put your sense of entitlement without getting an infraction here. You want to take a tense situation and add to it with legal orders? BTW, I would suggest you do some research on what a C&D is and what it is applicable to before you start using the term.

A range deciding to honour the BB as the only non-LEO/MIL holster qualification allowed only adds value to IPSC. In addition to that, should more people take their BB they would have to actually shoot matches and pay IPSC each year to maintain it. Do you really think something that is going to attract more people into the sport and ensure a little participation as well as funding is something that IPSC would want to stop?

Give your head a shake here. Just because you might be inconvenienced and have a supreme sense of entitlement, along with a blatant lack of knowledge in legal proceedings makes you look like a fool. I have a guy at work who pretends to be a lawyer with lots of legal mumble jumble and I call him on it all the time. He tucks tail and runs, you should too.
 
Good idea,
If you throw a shovel full at the wall some of it sticks.
TJspeller said:
Or, we can take this as an opportunity.

Certify a s88tload of new shooters, get them into IPSC (they'll be hooked, many of them) and grow IPSC like it's never grown before!!

It would require serious committment from the people qualifed to teach BB and from a range wiling to put on frequent training sessions. Silverdale could dedicate a range to a BB each week (as a goodwill measure). Right now each BB course sells out right away, and there's a great demand for more courses.
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The BB course will be the best bang for the buck. Two days on the range, all kinds of trigger time. Who could ask for more? One of the bonuses is you will learn a lot and be a better shooter. The second is that it is recognized all over including outside of Canada, for example Namibia.
 
Wooooo.... "Holster qualification" - it's a saying as ridiculous as it sounds.

How about "case qualification" ? No? How about then, "take a firearm out of a case, load a magazine with rounds in it, into a firearm, make ready and safely fire those rounds into a target, unload and make safe, then put the firearm in a case" course?

If you are a semi-intelligent human with a firearms licence you have the common sense to be safe with a holster.
I find it is a) the newby being convinced it is more complicated than it is by tools that have no business teaching anyone anything or b) that same tool pushing their ability beyond what it is that have issues with the safe use of a holster.

It is stupid simple if one pays attention to the golden rules - why are you guys making it more complicated for yourselves?
 
it is true that someone owns Silverdale and makes the rules, but here what it takes:
the club is forcing its members to take BB course, did they think that it is valid as long as you practice IPSC and participate to matches, otherwise the BB is not valid any more.
someone who will take the course to satisfy his club rules and has no interest in IPSC will lose his BB very soon, and he has to take the course again and again, not because he does not know how to safely use a holster but because he is not an IPSC type of person.
 
beltfed said:
Wooooo.... "Holster qualification" - it's a saying as ridiculous as it sounds.

How about "case qualification" ? No? How about then, "take a firearm out of a case, load a magazine with rounds in it, into a firearm, make ready and safely fire those rounds into a target, unload and make safe, then put the firearm in a case" course?

If you are a semi-intelligent human with a firearms licence you have the common sense to be safe with a holster.
I find it is a) the newby being convinced it is more complicated than it is by tools that have no business teaching anyone anything or b) that same tool pushing their ability beyond what it is that have issues with the safe use of a holster.

It is stupid simple if one pays attention to the golden rules - why are you guys making it more complicated for yourselves?
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as far as I know, most of the clubs if not all have qualification course for Handgun shooters to give them permission to use the range and shoot handgun and that to make sure they know the specific club rules and make sure they can safely handle a handgun.
anyone watched an action movie knows how to use a handgun, but when in practice, will he safely do that??
all it takes is a one mistake, when a bullet goes out no one can bring it back....... and in this case a life could be involved...
 
In theory, if we follow all of the safe gun handling rules there should be no need for it as beltfed and others have said.

I used a holster and shot club matched safely for 2 years before taking the BB course last weekend. What I learned from it was that I need to work on reloading on the move and shooting around obstacles. Holster safety.... more like common sense. Depressing the trigger makes the gun go bang, just don't do that when you are holstering. Keep your limbs out of the way from the barrel.
 
Training is always good

I'm sure some of you are SUPER safe with your gun and have SUPER common sense, etc. etc... and fantastic for you. I wish I can meet all of you and shake your hand with pride to have met you.
That said, what some of you are failing to understand is that many people, though nice enough (few dumbasses as well), are not so safe with a gun and not so much common sense, without the added training. And some have great common sense, but may not be so mechanically inclined (so ta speak). So a course like BB is good training to either help, improve, or simply re-enforce proper handling of a firearm from a holster. It's not only for just draw and re-holstering...it's draw and turn or kneel, or go prone, this or that...and in the confusion and excitement of such, brain farts do happen... as many of you have probably seen on may youtube "gun fail" videos... and this happens in Canada too.

So, I believe clubs should require such a course before allowing one to use holster at club. Problem is, it's not common sense to some, it's being taught and repetition in the course to guide you in safe direction. I'm sure there's folks out there who believe they're the good and safe ones, but they are not. Training of any kind is only a betterment, to even those who may not need it.....
Example, recently I helped RO a BB course, and found many shooters holstering and forgetting to put safety on, which can lead to an AD if finger goes in to early or doesn't come out of trigger guard... or bad hand / eye coordination to get it in holster (maybe physical/medical problem for that shooter ?)...When changing rules from only handling gun of bench, you're adding couple more things that can go wrong.... for crying out loud, off a bench some folks will accidentally turn while holding gun... or react crazy if hot casing goes down there shirt, etc.... and re-enforcing control of gun, finger out of trigger except when pointing down range...etc..... so don't be naive to suggest that training is NOT necessary or good thing for people to have more of.
It's bad enough that many new shooters joining clubs, though go thru club safety course and some proby shooting, are not actually getting very good training...thus already not being very proficient in their habits....adding holster and possibly running around on a range ? Yes, I've seen this myself at few clubs..... I guess it's lack of help from RO's which in turn the club training regiment is water downed and not much guidance.

It's not golf clubs you're holstering and upholstering out of a golf bag..it's a F'n gun that can kill someone if it goes wrong... So, don't be a not so smart person...even safe common sense folks will benefit from the training.

As for BB course being only one recognized by some clubs, I believe that's because it's one of the more detailed courses given by well organized group. Also, once you have it, I don't know if you have to keep paying IPSC dues every year to be valid..it is just that a course...and as long as you can get proof of taking and passing said course, it's likely to be accepted by clubs for years to come.... but check with you club on that, and chek with ipsc on what's needed to be issued proof of successful completion.

Personally, I think shooters should be shooting for at least a year, with well designed program and then when comfortable and proficient (safety wise, don't care in not the best shot), should take BB course....but that's not easy program to put together without full dedicated RO crew at each club...... Maybe clubs should start paying modest fee for RO's time, and such programs would be more likely to exist.... though clubs are not for profit, that's the clubs finances, not individual members problem.... club has to pay for heat and hydro, so why not more help, if so required.... doesn't mean paying for help is wrong.... if it betters the club....that's another story in itself.

That's my take....

ps... what happened at Silverdale ? I haven't heard.
 
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i wouldn't mind getting a black badge but its 2 full days 200 plus dollars and lots of ammo a little to much just to learn a few safety tips . i was watching a black badge corse while i was at the 3 gun match and I'm sere they can do it in one day charge 100 bucks and us 100 rounds and still teach everything they need to no . id rather spend 1 full day then blow a hole weekend and money and ammo .
all i hear is safety this safety that there really isn't that much to no holstering a gun safely its not rocket science and shouldn't take days and a lot of money to learn.
 
Bolivar said:
I agree in part with the comment above. The BB course is not a holster certification. It serves to get people familiar with the IPSC rule book and demonstrate basic proficiency with a firearm and holster. The really challenge in using IPSC BB as a base level qualification is that unless you are active in IPSC, you BB is not valid.

Frankly I don't like IPSC. It's just not for me. I've tried it at un-sanctioned events (3 gun) and don't care for sports that require me to do everything as fast as I possibly can.
I've taken the BB course but never bothered to actually get to a match at get my BB. I have no motivation. It was good to do the course so I know what was involved but that's it for me and IPSC.

So based on the OP, everybody should have to be an IPSC member in order to use a holster, regardless of their interest in IPSC events? I hope not.

Holster qualification course? In order to be safe with a holster you have to be able to draw a gun out and put it back without tripping the trigger right? Really? Do we need a course for this? It's not that hard.

Now, to draw a gun fast and get it on target quickly , yes shooters would get some benefit from that I think, just learning techniques and such. The safety aspect would almost be a by product IMO.
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Well if the people that think it's not that hard would stop shooting themselves... It would probably not even be an issue.

Too many egos. Not enough skills.
 
Jim Guns said:
Well if the people that think it's not that hard would stop shooting themselves... It would probably not even be an issue.

Too many egos. Not enough skills.
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give me a brake skills to holster a gun ? shooting themselves ? egos ? somebody with 20 years of experience with all the black badge courses and hundreds of matches under his belt can still make a mistake black badge dosent protect you from mistakes !
 
Ducatikid said:
i wouldn't mind getting a black badge but its 2 full days 200 plus dollars and lots of ammo a little to much just to learn a few safety tips ...
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A holster course can easily be done inside a day. I know a generous guy who is offering them for free to his fellow club members in a single evening.

A Black Badge course cannot possibly be done in one day. As has been said, it's not a holster course. It's an IPSC course and it has very specific requirements.
 
Ducatikid said:
give me a brake skills to holster a gun ? shooting themselves ? egos ? somebody with 20 years of experience with all the black badge courses and hundreds of matches under his belt can still make a mistake black badge dosent protect you from mistakes !
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No course will eliminate mistakes, of course, but definitely will reduce by more % than the opposite occurring with out the additional training.
And Yes, $200 is kinda steep, and full weekend course is too long, if only want it for getting holster certified.... but not too long for someone who wants to learn all the skills and training for ipsc or the betterment of their hobby.

And Yes, unfortunately (to repeat myself), it's not a difficult thing to learn how to...ooooooohhh take gun out of holster, but reality is, for some it is, and thus the requirement for such and this forces everyone to go thru it cause I don't know you and club doesn't know you, when they briefly met you at the club level course and shoveled you off on your own after a mere few supervised shoots...I personally don't want any of you.....DAh I don't need a course to handle a F'n tool that can kill....next to me on the range without such training...not that it's 100% safe with the course, but alot better.... Nor do I want to be next to anyone who I don't really know or ever witnessed their ability....As I said above, I've witnessed bad habits by many many shooters and I offer them advise on their mistake in hopes of bettering them.... but bad habits get worse and could be F'n dangerous....

How f'n hard is it to drive a car....any idiot can see theres a foot thing for stopping and one to get going, and the wheely thing controls direction like our toy cars, and the sticky thing shows where to put for reverse or forward.....I mean, wtf who can't figure that #### out...why do I need to take lessons for...How stupid #### is that ???!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How many of you who don't think training is needed, have broken bones from trying to do jumps off the roof of your house on a skate board :p :p

Back to BB course.. Maybe a shorter course can be done for those who are not going into ipsc, but want the holster qualification..and can be much less hours and less cost....it still would require some live fire and movement, and range time booked is not cheap....likely to still be most of one day $75 - $100

After all this, main thing is FINGER IN THE TRIGGER GUARD when it shouldn't be is the main cause of all evils in this great sport of ours....thus the need to retrain and help stop that stupidity... oops, I mean bad habit....just the other day, at my club, I can't reminding a proby to take his finger out, every time he wanted to look thru his spotting scope, he'd lower the gun on the bench and keep his finger in there...like that's not going to go off one day.

Curious, those who want holster qualification but not for ipsc, what is your intended use ? other action shooting or just to draw and shoot at your own at club or other ?
 
colt45gunner said:
No course will eliminate mistakes, of course, but definitely will reduce by more % than the opposite occurring with out the additional training.
And Yes, $200 is kinda steep, and full weekend course is too long, if only want it for getting holster certified.... but not too long for someone who wants to learn all the skills and training for ipsc or the betterment of their hobby.

And Yes, unfortunately (to repeat myself), it's not a difficult thing to learn how to...ooooooohhh take gun out of holster, but reality is, for some it is, and thus the requirement for such and this forces everyone to go thru it cause I don't know you and club doesn't know you, when they briefly met you at the club level course and shoveled you off on your own after a mere few supervised shoots...I personally don't want any of you.....DAh I don't need a course to handle a F'n tool that can kill....next to me on the range without such training...not that it's 100% safe with the course, but alot better.... Nor do I want to be next to anyone who I don't really know or ever witnessed their ability....As I said above, I've witnessed bad habits by many many shooters and I offer them advise on their mistake in hopes of bettering them.... but bad habits get worse and could be F'n dangerous....

How f'n hard is it to drive a car....any idiot can see theres a foot thing for stopping and one to get going, and the wheely thing controls direction like our toy cars, and the sticky thing shows where to put for reverse or forward.....I mean, wtf who can't figure that #### out...why do I need to take lessons for...How stupid #### is that ???!!! :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

How many of you who don't think training is needed, have broken bones from trying to do jumps off the roof of your house on a skate board :p :p

Back to BB course.. Maybe a shorter course can be done for those who are not going into ipsc, but want the holster qualification..and can be much less hours and less cost....it still would require some live fire and movement, and range time booked is not cheap....likely to still be most of one day $75 - $100

After all this, main thing is FINGER IN THE TRIGGER GUARD when it shouldn't be is the main cause of all evils in this great sport of ours....thus the need to retrain and help stop that stupidity... oops, I mean bad habit....just the other day, at my club, I can't reminding a proby to take his finger out, every time he wanted to look thru his spotting scope, he'd lower the gun on the bench and keep his finger in there...like that's not going to go off one day.

Curious, those who want holster qualification but not for ipsc, what is your intended use ? other action shooting or just to draw and shoot at your own at club or other ?
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I and many others I know feel exactly the same way. Thanks for the post. At the very least, and not sure why, the BB eliminates many of the "know it all" mall ninjas. :cheers:
 
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