Annealing question.....

ARH77

ARH77

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So I annealed a batch of brass, I think I annealed them ok. The discolouration completely ends just a bit below the shoulder, the main body is almost entirely the original brass colour. So I know the body/base is completely fine.

I think I got the necks to the correct temperature but I am a bit concerned I might have over annealed some necks.

If a neck (only the neck) is over annealed what happens when you shoot it? does it just group the size of a pizza? or can you damage something/be dangerous?

Thanks for the help
 
In my experience the necks just collapse when you try to seat a bullet. I've never gotten over-annealed cases to actually load properly so I have no idea what would happen.
 
You might get some excessive brass flow and lengthening when they fire, possibly enough to ruin them, but I can't see it being outright dangerous as it isn't blocking the bullet or anything. Firing brass that's already stretched too far and wasn't trimmed can be bad as the brass itself can get jammed into the throat before firing.

Taken from 6mmbr.com
Over-annealing is certainly the worst condition, and can even be dangerous, as pointed out above. Over-annealing has two aspects: over-annealing of the case neck only, and any annealing of the lower half of the case. There is no particular danger to over-annealing the case necks, which is the usual result of standing the brass in water and heating the necks with a torch. All that will happen is that your accuracy will not improve, or it may become worse, and the cases may seem to be a little more sticky during extraction. Case life will be improved because the necks are soft--too soft. However, you will conclude that annealing is not what it is cracked-up to be, and may even be a waste of time.
Click to expand...
Emphasis added.
 
^^^ this. I've even down right cooked the neck and shoulder to the point they are permanently black with no adverse effects other than very very little neck tension, however they seem to recover after one or two firings and I've reloaded them numerous times since, perhaps 10 times. I in fact can't really imagine any down side to too much besides the light neck tension. No problem for single shot with a jump to the lands but may be an issue if one were to jam into the lands then attempt to extract an unfired round, or a heavy recoiling rifle with rounds in the magazine may result in oal changes.

I read a very detailed article on precision shooting and the writers preferred method was to over anneal and load well beyond jamming and let the rifling seat the bullet deeper into the case as it was chambered.
 
Next time hold the cartridge head in your fingers while you anneal, this will allow you to turn the case in the flame, I usually put the flame tip on the center of the shoulder, when the heat transfers to the head of the case, you'll drop it before the case head softens and before the neck is damaged by heat. They say you don't need to drop the case in water, just a damp towel is enough to act as a heat sink, but with the finger method, having some nice cool water to dip your fingers in is beneficial. You'll find that the heat transfer is pretty quick, and the shorter the case, the faster the heat transfer.
 
I use the case holders meant to be chucked into a drill from the Lee case trimming system. Chuck it into a cordless, have a propane torch on a stable base, and spin it at any old RPM (doesn't really matter) with the neck in the flame. It anneals down the shoulder and just a hair into the body with only the neck in the visible flame. I then dump the cases onto a paper plate and let them air cool. Brass is unaffected by quenching and if you are using proper heat there shouldn't be enough thermal energy in the brass to anneal down to the web. If the colour change goes further than a touch past the shoulder, you are heating it way too hot.
 
How do you folks judge the proper brass temperature? Do you use Tempilaq or just judge from the colour of the brass.

My understanding is that the brass temperature is critical for good results.
 
I use Tempilaq. Higher temp on the inside of the neck and a lower temp on the outside of the body. Only need to do this to setup. Once I get a base line for time I omit the Tempilaq and just use a a timer.
 
Thanks for all the responses and information everyone....

Pr589 said:
How do you folks judge the proper brass temperature? Do you use Tempilaq or just judge from the colour of the brass.

My understanding is that the brass temperature is critical for good results.
Click to expand...

I was using Tempilaq 750 and a rotary annealing machine because I wanted a good and consistent result. What I was told/my understanding is that you want the Tempilaq to just start melting. I got it to that point, but then at that point the necks would start to turn maroon/red for a second or two (the room was dim but not dark). I read that you were suppose to stop before they turned maroon/red....

So the colour looked like it was telling me it's too hot and the Tempilaq was telling me it was just right. Thus I ended up with some annealed cases that I'm questioning if they are over annealed. Maybe I'm using/reading the Tempilaq wrong?

Update,

I did the "pinch" test on the annealed brass and it seemed a bit too soft to me. Then I ran it through the resizing die and tried again and it was a lot firmer. I was surprised how much firmer the brass got after just resizing it.

All the bullets seated correctly with no issues.

I went to the range and fired 20 of the annealed rounds. 19 all grouped under 1 moa, but 1 landed several inches low... maybe that one was over annealed.?.?.?.?... with the other 19 all grouping under an MOA I think that they are probably good.

I have a bunch more brass to anneal still.... maybe I'll turn the torches down just a bit this next time and see how they perform.
 
The brass needs to be heated until it changes colour(goes from yellowy brass to a very slightly darker yellow by eye) and no more. Maroon/red or anything close is too hot.
Annealing has nothing to do with accuracy. It's just a metal hardness thing that keeps the case necks from cracking. If they get too soft, it's not really a big deal. As you noticed resizing 'em work hardens 'em a bit and they're fine.
 
LUTNIT said:
I use the case holders meant to be chucked into a drill from the Lee case trimming system. Chuck it into a cordless, have a propane torch on a stable base, and spin it at any old RPM (doesn't really matter) with the neck in the flame. It anneals down the shoulder and just a hair into the body with only the neck in the visible flame. I then dump the cases onto a paper plate and let them air cool. Brass is unaffected by quenching and if you are using proper heat there shouldn't be enough thermal energy in the brass to anneal down to the web. If the colour change goes further than a touch past the shoulder, you are heating it way too hot.
Click to expand...


That is true, but brass transfers heat very efficiently, and if you get the case too warm you risk softening the case head, where quenching stops the heat transfer instantly. If you turn the case in your fingers, don't worry, you won't hold it long enough to over heat it, but it is certainly possible to over heat a case when relying on color change when using a drill mounted shell holder.
 
My first time annealing was when I was resizing the 45-70 into 33 WCF.
I tried the finger hold system and the brass was way too hard to be pliable with the press.
I then placed the brass standing up in a cake pan with about an inch of water.
I staggered them to eliminate the domino effect.
Heated up the necks until they were red or a slight version there of and bumped them over.
Big difference on the effort and force required to sckrunch the necks down.
I have also lernt (bwahahah....bit oh Lookaneez fer yah) to shorten the brass a bunch when
necking down as they do tend to grow and sometimes git bunched up in the top end of the dies.
Makes fer an unhappy Lewkie.....
 
I use the same method as you. I turn the cases for 6 seconds and the into the water they go. My friend is a metallurgist in the aero industry and he insists that water quenching is proper way to go. I find that people like to "cut corners" and these "cuts" become the proper way to do things.
 
I'm going to have to do a crap load of 30-30 after this summer.

Never annealed before so I'm paying attention.

I was thinking of finding a deep socket that will just leave the neck (and a bit more) the exposed, chucking it in a drill and going from there. Might even turn down various sockets for different calibers if it works as a guage of sorts.
 
07blackwater said:
I'm going to have to do a crap load of 30-30 after this summer.

Never annealed before so I'm paying attention.

I was thinking of finding a deep socket that will just leave the neck (and a bit more) the exposed, chucking it in a drill and going from there. Might even turn down various sockets for different calibers if it works as a guage of sorts.
Click to expand...


I use a deep socket for this as well, you can vary the depth easily with balled up tinfoil in the bottom, works as good as anything else.
 
I thought I share a little of my story from the last batch I annealed. 120pcs of Lapua brass I believe are over annealed, because when I go to re-size it in a bushing die it has drag marks and ridges on the entire neck due to the brass being too soft. Never happen to me before but I didn't quench my brass in water this time around. Sucks big time because of the thickness of the brass is compromised due to the abrasion created by the re-sizing process. I can't use my bushing die on this brass again. I had a competition in week of my annealing WA so I had to use the brass, I didn't have time to prep another batch. So I loaded them up and they all shot perfect waterline for all three days of my shoot. The neck tension was very consistent and the shoulders didn't collapse when seating. No splits formed from all the cases I inspected so the held up.

With the brass being overly soft I can't run them through my bushing die because the brass flows to easily. So I purchased a Lee collet neck sizing die to salvage still usable brass that has been damage buy my annealing process. Lesson learned.
 
ARH77 said:
Thanks for all the responses and information everyone....



I was using Tempilaq 750 and a rotary annealing machine because I wanted a good and consistent result. What I was told/my understanding is that you want the Tempilaq to just start melting. I got it to that point, but then at that point the necks would start to turn maroon/red for a second or two (the room was dim but not dark). I read that you were suppose to stop before they turned maroon/red....

So the colour looked like it was telling me it's too hot and the Tempilaq was telling me it was just right. Thus I ended up with some annealed cases that I'm questioning if they are over annealed. Maybe I'm using/reading the Tempilaq wrong?

Update,

I did the "pinch" test on the annealed brass and it seemed a bit too soft to me. Then I ran it through the resizing die and tried again and it was a lot firmer. I was surprised how much firmer the brass got after just resizing it.

All the bullets seated correctly with no issues.

I went to the range and fired 20 of the annealed rounds. 19 all grouped under 1 moa, but 1 landed several inches low... maybe that one was over annealed.?.?.?.?... with the other 19 all grouping under an MOA I think that they are probably good.

I have a bunch more brass to anneal still.... maybe I'll turn the torches down just a bit this next time and see how they perform.
Click to expand...
No harm can come to/from brass that is under annealed.
The same cannot be said for over annealed brass.
 
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