44 Magnum question? Update

I took the cylinder out and carefully checked it out. The live rounds all fit in the chambers very slightly proud of the rear of the cylinder, the chamber throats are all the same diameter which according to my calipers is .435, the bullet end of the live round will go all the way in the front of the chambers with room to spare.
I am really hoping the problem isn't oversize throats causing the casing to be blown back instead of swelling in the chambers.

That's how they should fit. The rim is what headspaces the rounds. The cases should fit with the rims sitting up. Blackhawks don't use rebated cylinders. When in the gun you should be able to see a thin sliver of daylight between the case heads and the recoil shield face.

.435 seems a touch large but because of the size it means there was no bullets sticking in the throats. So it points directly back at overcharging and excessive pressure from the ammo being the issue.

Just to put this in perspective. If you look around on the web for images of "primer flow images" you won't see any examples that are as extreme as yours. Or at least yours will match the worst you'll see. Once again the ONLY thing that can cause the metal of the primers to swage out and form like that is serious pressure.

Another thing to consider is 'are the cases oily?'......

This was only ever an issue in revolvers with the rare cases where shouldered rounds were used. With straight wall cartridges it's not an issue. And in fact the smooth operation of a revolver requires some movement. When the shot occurs the first action is that the primer goes off and the primer sets back slightly out of the primer pocket. Then the main charge goes off and the pressure forces the casing back. If the walls have a slight oil film the casing simply slides. I suppose if the walls were bone dry the brass might simply stretch a little. But in any event the case does come back and press against the recoil shield. Once the pressure drops the walls of the casing spring back a little and the casing is free to float in the chamber. It has to do this or the head of the casing will lock up against the recoil shield. Which was exactly the issue that occurred with the rare cases of shouldered rounds.

.44-40 doesn't count. Yes it's a shouldered casing. But the amount is so slight and the length of the taper so long that when the casing springs back there's enough play to let it slide forward just fine. The examples which produced troubles were much more extreme.

Did you notice any unusual level of recoil or muzzle flash from shot to shot?

Have you tried running the cases through a de-capper/resizing die to see if the primer hole is larger or if the cases appeared unusual?

With new brass I would hope that Federal could at least get THAT part right. But even so the regular hole is still large enough that we will see full pressure at the primer. It IS a little larger than 1/16 inch after all. For a small volume such as a primer that's like a roll up door on a garage being open.

Primer cups are pretty tough little beasts. It takes a LOT of pressure to swage them out like this and even push the edges down into the small notches around the firing pin bushing.

And let's do the math. I see 5 casings with obvious signs of serious over pressure. But there's only 4 rows of five empties. Assuming the OP loaded only 5 rounds at a time that means he shot 4 times. But there's 5 bad casings. So it sure points to the idea that it's not a single chamber.

Besides, other than the possibility of a tight throat, which we've eliminated now, there's simply nothing that can be messed up with a cylinder chamber that won't be easily seen by the naked eyeball which would produce this sort of flowed primer issue. It keeps pointing right to the ammo being badly loaded and producing far over spec pressure. Especially when all the other primers are fine and the number of flowed primers doesn't tally up with the single chamber flaw idea.

Skinny, I don't know what you paid for this ammo but you should really get into reloading your own. First off you have more control over the quality and second it'll cost you much less. Reduced power sport loads will be down around 23 to 25 cents and the full house rounds that use H110 or similar only a few of cents more for the added powder. The brass is good for at least 10 to 15 full power shots. And far more loadings if you load down a little to the mid range level in the loading data. So all in all you really cut your costs. Pretty much ANYTHING that starts with a ".4" or has "Magnum" anywhere in the name is far less costly to reload yourself. A modest single stage setup that can reload around 150 rounds an hour can be set up for a couple of hundred bucks. I'll leave it to you to figure out how often and how much you shoot to do the math on how long it would take to re-coup the cost of the reloading gear and begin seriously saving money.
 
No expert here.
The only 44 mag I have is a Ranchhand. They are about 'zero' on ergonomic's. The factory stuff is brutal through it.
Handloads with 2400 are a pleasure to shoot.
44 magnum isn't that hard as far as reloading goes IMO
 
I reload .45ACP, 45 Colt and 30-30, as I mentioned this is the first time out for 44 Magnum and I want to see if it is a round that I want to shoot a lot before getting the press set up for it.
This problem is similar to another Single Action revolver that I have in 45 Colt. In that gun the primers flow out into a concave (damaged) recoil shield and jam the cylinder completely and it will do it even with greatly reduced loads.
The chambers were oiled in the 44 Magnum before this latest range trip so I will buy another box of ammo from a different maker and try that with dry chambers and see if it makes any difference. So far I am liking this calibre, I can use some brass anyway because I probably will reload for it.
 
Spent primers do exhibit obvious over pressure signs and my bet is also on hot loads.

I'm surprised no one mentioned it so far but are all bullets seated at the same depth? Are all remaining rounds relatively at the same OAL? If some are evidently shorter than the others... A loose crimp is unforgiving for those heavy bullets. Recently one fellow found his ammo unpleasantly short after a rough drive to the range.
 
Welcome to the 44 Mag crowd :)

We can meet up at POCO if you want to try some other factory (AE and S&B) plus variety of reloads (23-24gn H110, 23gn LiL'Gun and 7-9gn Titegroup) using CamPro bullets, Fed primers.


Have a inertia and RCBS bullet puller along with RCBS chargemaster if you ever want to pull the bullets to weight the charge.

Will bring my 44 hunter (7.5" compensated) when we meet up, you'll luv the sweet recoil, softer than 45ACP.
I reload .45ACP, 45 Colt and 30-30, as I mentioned this is the first time out for 44 Magnum and I want to see if it is a round that I want to shoot a lot before getting the press set up for it.
This problem is similar to another Single Action revolver that I have in 45 Colt. In that gun the primers flow out into a concave (damaged) recoil shield and jam the cylinder completely and it will do it even with greatly reduced loads.
The chambers were oiled in the 44 Magnum before this latest range trip so I will buy another box of ammo from a different maker and try that with dry chambers and see if it makes any difference. So far I am liking this calibre, I can use some brass anyway because I probably will reload for it.
 
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....I'm surprised no one mentioned it so far but are all bullets seated at the same depth? Are all remaining rounds relatively at the same OAL? If some are evidently shorter than the others... A loose crimp is unforgiving for those heavy bullets. Recently one fellow found his ammo unpleasantly short after a rough drive to the range.

Colour me :redface: for forgetting about the possibility of a loose crimp. If the bullets are setting back in the casings due to the recoil the last one or two could easily produce serious over pressure due to the lack of initial volume.

Check the last of the ammo for this by forcefully trying to push the bullet into the casing with your thumb. If you can do it without serious pain or breaking the thumb :D then the crimp is too light and this would be a pretty likely reason for the over pressure.
 
In a revolver, a loosely crimped bullet will result in them creeping out of the case, not deeper. Generally if that happens then it would tie up the cylinder, and reduce pressures.
Also, if this is happening on only one cylinder, then the answer may be headspace on that cylinder, not excessive pressure in factory ammunition that shows up in one round in five every time. Slightly excessive headspace could result in the case being driven forward, and then smashing back with the primer slightly extruded. Smashing back into the recoil plate would result in a very fine imprint of the plate, as shown.
I suspect it is not an ammunition problem. If not a reaming problem, then a slightly asymetrical cylinder?
 
In a revolver, a loosely crimped bullet will result in them creeping out of the case, not deeper. Generally if that happens then it would tie up the cylinder, and reduce pressures.
Also, if this is happening on only one cylinder, then the answer may be headspace on that cylinder, not excessive pressure in factory ammunition that shows up in one round in five every time. Slightly excessive headspace could result in the case being driven forward, and then smashing back with the primer slightly extruded. Smashing back into the recoil plate would result in a very fine imprint of the plate, as shown.
I suspect it is not an ammunition problem. If not a reaming problem, then a slightly asymetrical cylinder?
^I've heard of this before. And one way to possibly diagnose this is do what some discriminating pistol shooters do; mark the cylinder between the chambers for each chamber hole. Then you can easily view the numbers as you load/unload your ammunition and test fire each of the six chambers with live ammo and verify each separate one. This is more easily done with a stainless steel revolver.

maybe
 
I reload .45ACP, 45 Colt and 30-30, as I mentioned this is the first time out for 44 Magnum and I want to see if it is a round that I want to shoot a lot before getting the press set up for it.
This problem is similar to another Single Action revolver that I have in 45 Colt. In that gun the primers flow out into a concave (damaged) recoil shield and jam the cylinder completely and it will do it even with greatly reduced loads.
The chambers were oiled in the 44 Magnum before this latest range trip so I will buy another box of ammo from a different maker and try that with dry chambers and see if it makes any difference. So far I am liking this calibre, I can use some brass anyway because I probably will reload for it.

you did say you had oiled /wet chambers when were firing the hand gun.I was always led to believe you always remove any excessive lube from a chambers ,be it rifle or rifle ,semi auto as all pressure will now be on the bolt face /recoil plate as the fired cases will not hold to chamber wall due to lube and nullify the blish effect.

Was always told to make sure chamber is always clean and dry before loading ,if incorrect somebody will set me straight I'm sure
 
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Clean and dry chambers, and also the bore, should be the normal condition just prior to firing IMO.

Putting on the steel helmet for an army story here. We mere army recruits always were lined up for the battle school NCOs whose last effort, just before we were issued ammunition for live fire of our SMGs/FNs, was to pull a dry patch through the bore.
 
In a revolver, a loosely crimped bullet will result in them creeping out of the case, not deeper. Generally if that happens then it would tie up the cylinder, and reduce pressures.
Also, if this is happening on only one cylinder, then the answer may be headspace on that cylinder, .....

You're right. It's in semi auto magazines where the rounds bang into the magazine walls or where the loose bullet is pushed deeper by the chamber ramp that set back is an issue.

So that brings us right back to over pressure ammo loads again.

Revolvers head space the rounds off the rim. And single action revolvers typically have simple chamber mouths. No rebate to let the rounds sit deep. So it's hard to imagine that only one chamber could be so badly distorted that it would do this. Or that one would not notice a significant deformation in the rear cylinder face. So I'm pretty skeptical that it's a head space issue on only one chamber. It would be an issue with the whole cylinder or none at all.

But if this particular gun does have rebated chamber mouths then it does open up the idea to one of them being too deep and allowing excessive travel.
 
you did say you had oiled /wet chambers when were firing the hand gun.I was always led to believe you always remove any excessive lube from a chambers ,be it rifle or rifle ,semi auto as all pressure will now be on the bolt face /recoil plate as the fired cases will not hold to chamber wall due to lube and nullify the blish effect.

Was always told to make sure chamber is always clean and dry before loading ,if incorrect somebody will set me straight I'm sure

Meh, sure clean and dry is optimum but I've shot all sorts of guns (hand and rifle) with wet chambers and bores. The first few rounds are "smokey" :) that's about it.{I've forgotten to clean spray grease out of a chamber and bore of my .303 British before!:eek:...no ill effect, no over psi, just smoke;)} I'm leaning toward BCRiders theories of over pressure/ hot ammo. The only thing that still has me scratching my head is how Skinny wouldn't have noticed a significant indicator such as report and felt recoil.
 
I actually oil my cartridges in my .44 when I'm carrying for my ATC. Keeps the brass from oxidizing(or whatever it is) in the wet climate.
 
you did say you had oiled /wet chambers when were firing the hand gun.I was always led to believe you always remove any excessive lube from a chambers ,be it rifle or rifle ,semi auto as all pressure will now be on the bolt face /recoil plate as the fired cases will not hold to chamber wall due to lube and nullify the blish effect.

Was always told to make sure chamber is always clean and dry before loading ,if incorrect somebody will set me straight I'm sure

Follow the Link. I never knew this, but I'm writing it down. Pretty informative.
Though I will say I never considered the tapered vs untapered theory. Why take that chance is my thought.
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/forum/showthread.php/1089046-303-British-reloading/page4
 
I have researched a number of kabooms. Some involved serious injury to the shooter. (One guy lost an eye.)

In many of them there were indications of problems before the gun let go.

I have programmed myself to stop shooting and take it home for investigation, rather than "Fire a few more and see if it happens again."

I look forward to hearing what is causing this. it might be something as simple as one chamber being better polished and reacting more to the oil (that should not be in the chamber.)

Oiled ammo is NOT a good idea for ATC ammo. It could cause the gun to bind. Nickle plated brass is the solution.
 
Thanks for all the input on this, I didn't make it to the range last weekend but will try to figure this thing out this Sunday.
Burnaby has offered to help me out with this up at the range so I will report back after the further testing.
 
Just got back from the range and tried some Sellier & Bellot 44 Rem. Mag. ammo....as the picture shows no serious primer mashing using this ammo, there is a slight impression of the firing pin retainer but nothing serious.
I am going to take the American Eagle ammo back to the dealer and see what they say about it, I don't dare shoot it due to the over-pressure indications.

 
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